Discussion:
Nickel Iron batteries
(too old to reply)
Werner Peters
2008-07-14 12:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Okay, I am back with more questions.

I found a supplier for the Potassium Hydroxide solution that I need to
recharge these unused but old batteries.
Now we have discovered another problem.

These batteries are sealed. The old solution in the batteries has
crystallized.

We cannot properly clean the batteries or even put new solution in them
without drilling holes in them. Once we do that, of course, we need to find
a way of capping the holes..

What does one do?
(I didn't work on this, but we took it to an electrical guy to work on, and
this is what he told me)

Werner
--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
Mark Grasser
2008-07-14 12:53:51 UTC
Permalink
And you guys said it couldn't be done. Of course it's a little longer than
your basic commuter.



http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/07/13/frampton.ca.solar.taxi.cab.
kxtv

Mark Grasser
Eliot, ME
Peter VanDerWal
2008-07-14 07:41:27 UTC
Permalink
> And you guys said it couldn't be done. Of course it's a little longer than
> your basic commuter.
>
>
>
> http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/07/13/frampton.ca.solar.taxi.cab.
> kxtv
>

I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done.

Only that it isn't practical. Try asking him how much that puppy would
cost if he didn't have sponsors donating the materials.
Evan Tuer
2008-07-14 14:57:50 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

>>
>> http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/07/13/frampton.ca.solar.taxi.cab.
>> kxtv
>>
>
> I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done.
>
> Only that it isn't practical. Try asking him how much that puppy would
> cost if he didn't have sponsors donating the materials.

It's not impractical. The car seems very minimalist, the battery is
affordable (similar to NiCad in price) and that amount of solar panels
is worth, at a guess, about $3000.

Of course as a one-off project it will have cost a hell of a lot to
develop and build, but as far as I can see there is nothing on it
that's either unobtainium or incredibly expensive.
To replicate, I expect it would actually be cheaper to build than a
normal conversion if you were starting with a new glider and Li-Ion
batteries.
Roger Heuckeroth
2008-07-14 15:18:15 UTC
Permalink
If you guys want to see something really incredible check out:

http://www.sionpower.com/pdf/news/SION%20Power-%20QinetiQ%20New%20Release%20Final%20Version.pdf

Its a solar powered glider that can stay aloft potentially an
unlimited time running on solar during the day, and batteries at
night. The battery technology is Lithium - Sulfur which has an energy
density several times higher than todays best lithium batteries.
Fitting these batteries into a Rav 4 EV would give it a 226 mile range
with in the same volume taken up by the Nimh battery pack, but
weighing less than half of the original pack. That's almost 3 times
the range with less than half the weight.

See http://www.sionpower.com/applications/electric.html

Let's all hope that the wrong hands don't get a hold of this
technology (like big oil). The technology is out there folks...


On Jul 14, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/07/13/
>>> frampton.ca.solar.taxi.cab.
>>> kxtv
>>>
>>
>> I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done.
>>
>> Only that it isn't practical. Try asking him how much that puppy
>> would
>> cost if he didn't have sponsors donating the materials.
>
> It's not impractical. The car seems very minimalist, the battery is
> affordable (similar to NiCad in price) and that amount of solar panels
> is worth, at a guess, about $3000.
>
> Of course as a one-off project it will have cost a hell of a lot to
> develop and build, but as far as I can see there is nothing on it
> that's either unobtainium or incredibly expensive.
> To replicate, I expect it would actually be cheaper to build than a
> normal conversion if you were starting with a new glider and Li-Ion
> batteries.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> ev
Robin Lawrie
2008-07-14 15:27:12 UTC
Permalink
Hmm...sionpower. I remember getting excited about those batteries about
4 years ago.. another eestor... never released a product..always just
round the corner. apparently they couldn't get them to go past 2-300
cycles without crapping out.. I wonder if they cracked that yet?

-----Original Message-----
From: ev-bounces-UWgVIey+***@public.gmane.org [mailto:ev-bounces-UWgVIey+***@public.gmane.org] On
Behalf Of Roger Heuckeroth
Sent: 14 July 2008 16:18
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar powered car.

If you guys want to see something really incredible check out:

http://www.sionpower.com/pdf/news/SION%20Power-%20QinetiQ%20New%20Releas
e%20Final%20Version.pdf

Its a solar powered glider that can stay aloft potentially an
unlimited time running on solar during the day, and batteries at
night. The battery technology is Lithium - Sulfur which has an energy
density several times higher than todays best lithium batteries.
Fitting these batteries into a Rav 4 EV would give it a 226 mile range
with in the same volume taken up by the Nimh battery pack, but
weighing less than half of the original pack. That's almost 3 times
the range with less than half the weight.

See http://www.sionpower.com/applications/electric.html

Let's all hope that the wrong hands don't get a hold of this
technology (like big oil). The technology is out there folks...


On Jul 14, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/07/13/
>>> frampton.ca.solar.taxi.cab.
>>> kxtv
>>>
>>
>> I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done.
>>
>> Only that it isn't practical. Try asking him how much that puppy
>> would
>> cost if he didn't have sponsors donating the materials.
>
> It's not impractical. The car seems very minimalist, the battery is
> affordable (similar to NiCad in price) and that amount of solar panels
> is worth, at a guess, about $3000.
>
> Of course as a one-off project it will have cost a hell of a lot to
> develop and build, but as far as I can see there is nothing on it
> that's either unobtainium or incredibly expensive.
> To replicate, I expect it would actually be cheaper to build than a
> normal conversion if you were starting with a new glider and Li-Ion
> batteries.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> ev


_______________________________________________
For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
Roger Heuckeroth
2008-07-14 16:12:14 UTC
Permalink
I think the issue with companies like this is that they are R&D based,
and not geared to jump right into production. I worked for a company
like that many years ago. The scientists never felt the product was
fully ready for production. If Sion ever actually produces a product
it will be way overpriced because of all the fat overhead. The best
thing they could do is license it to a real manufacturer(s).

Bottom line is Lithium and Sulfur are both relatively inexpensive.
With a little bit of refinement, and maybe some nano-tech thrown in
there it could be a viable product. The only thing that worries me is
that they have heavily patented the technology and that makes it easy
for the technology to be bought up just like Chevron / Texaco did with
Nimh.

Have you seen the PR commercials where Exxon Mobil is working on
Lithium Ion Technology. Of course they are. They want to establish
control. I cringe whenever I see that commercial!

On Jul 14, 2008, at 11:27 AM, Robin Lawrie wrote:

> Hmm...sionpower. I remember getting excited about those batteries
> about
> 4 years ago.. another eestor... never released a product..always just
> round the corner. apparently they couldn't get them to go past 2-300
> cycles without crapping out.. I wonder if they cracked that yet?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ev-bounces-UWgVIey+***@public.gmane.org [mailto:ev-bounces-UWgVIey+***@public.gmane.org] On
> Behalf Of Roger Heuckeroth
> Sent: 14 July 2008 16:18
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Solar powered car.
>
> If you guys want to see something really incredible check out:
>
> http://www.sionpower.com/pdf/news/SION%20Power-%20QinetiQ%20New%20Releas
> e%20Final%20Version.pdf
>
> Its a solar powered glider that can stay aloft potentially an
> unlimited time running on solar during the day, and batteries at
> night. The battery technology is Lithium - Sulfur which has an energy
> density several times higher than todays best lithium batteries.
> Fitting these batteries into a Rav 4 EV would give it a 226 mile range
> with in the same volume taken up by the Nimh battery pack, but
> weighing less than half of the original pack. That's almost 3 times
> the range with less than half the weight.
>
> See http://www.sionpower.com/applications/electric.html
>
> Let's all hope that the wrong hands don't get a hold of this
> technology (like big oil). The technology is out there folks...
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Evan Tuer wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:41 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/tech/2008/07/13/
>>>> frampton.ca.solar.taxi.cab.
>>>> kxtv
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't recall anyone saying it couldn't be done.
>>>
>>> Only that it isn't practical. Try asking him how much that puppy
>>> would
>>> cost if he didn't have sponsors donating the materials.
>>
>> It's not impractical. The car seems very minimalist, the battery is
>> affordable (similar to NiCad in price) and that amount of solar
>> panels
>> is worth, at a guess, about $3000.
>>
>> Of course as a one-off project it will have cost a hell of a lot to
>> develop and build, but as far as I can see there is nothing on it
>> that's either unobtainium or incredibly expensive.
>> To replicate, I expect it would actually be cheaper to build than a
>> normal conversion if you were starting with a new glider and Li-Ion
>> batteries.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
>> ev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> ev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> ev
Zeke Yewdall
2008-07-14 12:58:50 UTC
Permalink
Can you post pics somewhere? I've never seen any that were sealed, unless
they are not flooded Nickle Iron batteries, but something else. Doesn't
mean they don't exist though...

Z

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:31 AM, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Okay, I am back with more questions.
>
> I found a supplier for the Potassium Hydroxide solution that I need to
> recharge these unused but old batteries.
> Now we have discovered another problem.
>
> These batteries are sealed. The old solution in the batteries has
> crystallized.
>
> We cannot properly clean the batteries or even put new solution in them
> without drilling holes in them. Once we do that, of course, we need to find
> a way of capping the holes..
>
> What does one do?
> (I didn't work on this, but we took it to an electrical guy to work on, and
> this is what he told me)
>
> Werner
> --
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
Werner Peters
2008-07-14 13:35:06 UTC
Permalink
No pics at present. I will have at the end of the day though.

I called Eagle Picher, the maker of these batteries, and they would
not?could not connect me with anyone who could advise me on these batteries.
They said, "There is no one in the company that still knows anything about
those batteries."

Course, this was a receptionist.. grrr.

Werner



On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:58 AM, Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Can you post pics somewhere? I've never seen any that were sealed, unless
> they are not flooded Nickle Iron batteries, but something else. Doesn't
> mean they don't exist though...
>
> Z
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:31 AM, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Okay, I am back with more questions.
> >
> > I found a supplier for the Potassium Hydroxide solution that I need to
> > recharge these unused but old batteries.
> > Now we have discovered another problem.
> >
> > These batteries are sealed. The old solution in the batteries has
> > crystallized.
> >
> > We cannot properly clean the batteries or even put new solution in them
> > without drilling holes in them. Once we do that, of course, we need to
> find
> > a way of capping the holes..
> >
> > What does one do?
> > (I didn't work on this, but we took it to an electrical guy to work on,
> and
> > this is what he told me)
> >
> > Werner
> > --
> > ********************************************
> > www.westmountparkchurch.org
> > www.thesummitchurch.ca
> > ********************************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
Jeff Major
2008-07-14 13:44:21 UTC
Permalink
--- On Mon, 7/14/08, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I found a supplier for the Potassium Hydroxide solution
> that I need to
> recharge these unused but old batteries.
> Now we have discovered another problem.
>
> These batteries are sealed. The old solution in the
> batteries has
> crystallized.
>

Hey Werner,

Those are Eagle Picher batteries, aren't they? There is a hydration port on each end, middle top. You pump the fluid thru the top and each cell is filled. I think Steve had some cut-away pictures of the system. Anyway, confirm they are EP.

Regards,

Jeff M
Peter VanDerWal
2008-07-14 08:30:28 UTC
Permalink
>
> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> I found a supplier for the Potassium Hydroxide solution
>> that I need to
>> recharge these unused but old batteries.
>> Now we have discovered another problem.
>>
>> These batteries are sealed. The old solution in the
>> batteries has
>> crystallized.
>>
>
> Hey Werner,
>
> Those are Eagle Picher batteries, aren't they? There is a hydration port
> on each end, middle top. You pump the fluid thru the top and each cell is
> filled. I think Steve had some cut-away pictures of the system. Anyway,
> confirm they are EP.

I don't think the problem is getting the new stuff in, it's getting the
old stuff out.
As I recall, those hydration ports are designed to keep the fluid inside.
Werner Peters
2008-07-14 16:38:57 UTC
Permalink
I have all 28 batteries in my possession now (whew!).

The batteries aree solid white halfwa up the walls of the batteries. I will
post a couple pictures.

yI hope distilled water will dissolve this stuff.. I imagine this is simple
solid crystallized potassium hydroxide and the water simply evaporated. If I
cannot get this stuff out, I am euchred.

Werner



On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:30 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> >
> > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I found a supplier for the Potassium Hydroxide solution
> >> that I need to
> >> recharge these unused but old batteries.
> >> Now we have discovered another problem.
> >>
> >> These batteries are sealed. The old solution in the
> >> batteries has
> >> crystallized.
> >>
> >
> > Hey Werner,
> >
> > Those are Eagle Picher batteries, aren't they? There is a hydration port
> > on each end, middle top. You pump the fluid thru the top and each cell
> is
> > filled. I think Steve had some cut-away pictures of the system. Anyway,
> > confirm they are EP.
>
> I don't think the problem is getting the new stuff in, it's getting the
> old stuff out.
> As I recall, those hydration ports are designed to keep the fluid inside.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
Werner Peters
2008-07-14 17:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Pictures of batteries in question are posted

http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N00/

Werner

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
wrote:

> I have all 28 batteries in my possession now (whew!).
>
> The batteries aree solid white halfwa up the walls of the batteries. I will
> post a couple pictures.
>
> yI hope distilled water will dissolve this stuff.. I imagine this is simple
> solid crystallized potassium hydroxide and the water simply evaporated. If I
> cannot get this stuff out, I am euchred.
>
> Werner
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:30 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
>> >
>> > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I found a supplier for the Potassium Hydroxide solution
>> >> that I need to
>> >> recharge these unused but old batteries.
>> >> Now we have discovered another problem.
>> >>
>> >> These batteries are sealed. The old solution in the
>> >> batteries has
>> >> crystallized.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Hey Werner,
>> >
>> > Those are Eagle Picher batteries, aren't they? There is a hydration
>> port
>> > on each end, middle top. You pump the fluid thru the top and each cell
>> is
>> > filled. I think Steve had some cut-away pictures of the system.
>> Anyway,
>> > confirm they are EP.
>>
>> I don't think the problem is getting the new stuff in, it's getting the
>> old stuff out.
>> As I recall, those hydration ports are designed to keep the fluid inside.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
>



--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
Rod Hower
2008-07-14 18:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Those appear to be the batteries used in a Dodge
TEVan.
I had NiCd's in my van, but developed the charge
algorithm for both NiFe and NiCd while working at GE
and driving both types of battery technology.
Do you also have the Dodge TEVan?
Rod
TEVan and other EV's
http://picasaweb.google.com/rodnhower/ElectricVehicle

--- Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Pictures of batteries in question are posted
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N00/
>
> Werner
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Werner Peters
> <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I have all 28 batteries in my possession now
> (whew!).
> >
> > The batteries aree solid white halfwa up the walls
> of the batteries. I will
> > post a couple pictures.
> >
> > yI hope distilled water will dissolve this stuff..
> I imagine this is simple
> > solid crystallized potassium hydroxide and the
> water simply evaporated. If I
> > cannot get this stuff out, I am euchred.
> >
> > Werner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:30 AM, Peter VanDerWal
> <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On Mon, 7/14/08, Werner Peters
> <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I found a supplier for the Potassium Hydroxide
> solution
> >> >> that I need to
> >> >> recharge these unused but old batteries.
> >> >> Now we have discovered another problem.
> >> >>
> >> >> These batteries are sealed. The old solution
> in the
> >> >> batteries has
> >> >> crystallized.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Hey Werner,
> >> >
> >> > Those are Eagle Picher batteries, aren't they?
> There is a hydration
> >> port
> >> > on each end, middle top. You pump the fluid
> thru the top and each cell
> >> is
> >> > filled. I think Steve had some cut-away
> pictures of the system.
> >> Anyway,
> >> > confirm they are EP.
> >>
> >> I don't think the problem is getting the new
> stuff in, it's getting the
> >> old stuff out.
> >> As I recall, those hydration ports are designed
> to keep the fluid inside.
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For general EVDL support, see
> http://evdl.org/help/
> >> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ********************************************
> > www.westmountparkchurch.org
> > www.thesummitchurch.ca
> > ********************************************
> >
>
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
R. Matt Milliron
2008-07-17 17:00:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 13:07:57 -0400, you wrote:

>Pictures of batteries in question are posted
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N00/
>
>Werner
>
(GRIN) Isn't she just the cutest little nickel/iron battery you ever
saw!

Matt Milliron
Roger Heuckeroth
2008-07-14 18:37:12 UTC
Permalink
Just a bit of warning... adding water to any solid hydroxide produces
a strong exothermic reaction! Just be careful.


On Jul 14, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Werner Peters wrote:

> I have all 28 batteries in my possession now (whew!).
>
> The batteries aree solid white halfwa up the walls of the batteries.
> I will
> post a couple pictures.
>
> yI hope distilled water will dissolve this stuff.. I imagine this is
> simple
> solid crystallized potassium hydroxide and the water simply
> evaporated. If I
> cannot get this stuff out, I am euchred.
>
> Werner
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:30 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> --- On Mon, 7/14/08, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I found a supplier for the Potassium Hydroxide solution
>>>> that I need to
>>>> recharge these unused but old batteries.
>>>> Now we have discovered another problem.
>>>>
>>>> These batteries are sealed. The old solution in the
>>>> batteries has
>>>> crystallized.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hey Werner,
>>>
>>> Those are Eagle Picher batteries, aren't they? There is a
>>> hydration port
>>> on each end, middle top. You pump the fluid thru the top and each
>>> cell
>> is
>>> filled. I think Steve had some cut-away pictures of the system.
>>> Anyway,
>>> confirm they are EP.
>>
>> I don't think the problem is getting the new stuff in, it's getting
>> the
>> old stuff out.
>> As I recall, those hydration ports are designed to keep the fluid
>> inside.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> ev
Werner Peters
2008-07-14 20:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Okay, I now have 29 Eagle-Picher FeNi (or NiFe) 6 volt batteries sitting on
a pallet in my garage. It looks like every one of them is solid crystal
inside. See the link to pictures that I posted in an earlier post.

It didn't take much distilled water to fill them to overflowing through the
hydration ports. So they are not sealed batteries in that sense. No obvious
exothermic reaction.. no heat, no smoke..

It was suggested to me that I fill them with distilled water and put the
charger to them to break up the crystallization. I will have to wait till I
can get my hands on the charger..

Werner
Zeke Yewdall
2008-07-14 20:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
violently to having water put in it. Very strange....

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Okay, I now have 29 Eagle-Picher FeNi (or NiFe) 6 volt batteries sitting on
> a pallet in my garage. It looks like every one of them is solid crystal
> inside. See the link to pictures that I posted in an earlier post.
>
> It didn't take much distilled water to fill them to overflowing through the
> hydration ports. So they are not sealed batteries in that sense. No obvious
> exothermic reaction.. no heat, no smoke..
>
> It was suggested to me that I fill them with distilled water and put the
> charger to them to break up the crystallization. I will have to wait till I
> can get my hands on the charger..
>
> Werner
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
Werner Peters
2008-07-14 20:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Yeah.. I took some of the dry crusty stuff that was hanging out of one of
the ports and dropped it in water, It partially dissolved and made the water
murky, but it happened very slowly.. no violent reaction whatsoever.

Werner

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
> violently to having water put in it. Very strange....
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Okay, I now have 29 Eagle-Picher FeNi (or NiFe) 6 volt batteries sitting
>> on
>> a pallet in my garage. It looks like every one of them is solid crystal
>> inside. See the link to pictures that I posted in an earlier post.
>>
>> It didn't take much distilled water to fill them to overflowing through
>> the
>> hydration ports. So they are not sealed batteries in that sense. No
>> obvious
>> exothermic reaction.. no heat, no smoke..
>>
>> It was suggested to me that I fill them with distilled water and put the
>> charger to them to break up the crystallization. I will have to wait till
>> I
>> can get my hands on the charger..
>>
>> Werner
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>


--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
EVDL Administrator
2008-07-14 22:02:58 UTC
Permalink
My guess is that it's potassium carbonate, formed when the electrolyte
attracts CO2 from the air. Probably the venting system was left open to the
atmosphere. Try washing it out with distilled water. You may have to soak
it for a while.

David Roden
EVDL Administrator
http://www.evdl.org/
Roger Heuckeroth
2008-07-15 01:11:58 UTC
Permalink
It definitely is not just crystalized KOH. It would have reacted with
the water. What is the chemistry of the NiFe batteries? Is the
electrolyte KOH?

On Jul 14, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Werner Peters wrote:

> Yeah.. I took some of the dry crusty stuff that was hanging out of
> one of
> the ports and dropped it in water, It partially dissolved and made
> the water
> murky, but it happened very slowly.. no violent reaction whatsoever.
>
> Werner
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
>> violently to having water put in it. Very strange....
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 2:38 PM, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Okay, I now have 29 Eagle-Picher FeNi (or NiFe) 6 volt batteries
>>> sitting
>>> on
>>> a pallet in my garage. It looks like every one of them is solid
>>> crystal
>>> inside. See the link to pictures that I posted in an earlier post.
>>>
>>> It didn't take much distilled water to fill them to overflowing
>>> through
>>> the
>>> hydration ports. So they are not sealed batteries in that sense. No
>>> obvious
>>> exothermic reaction.. no heat, no smoke..
>>>
>>> It was suggested to me that I fill them with distilled water and
>>> put the
>>> charger to them to break up the crystallization. I will have to
>>> wait till
>>> I
>>> can get my hands on the charger..
>>>
>>> Werner
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> ev
Christopher Zach
2008-07-15 04:40:50 UTC
Permalink
Werner Peters wrote:
> Yeah.. I took some of the dry crusty stuff that was hanging out of one of
> the ports and dropped it in water, It partially dissolved and made the water
> murky, but it happened very slowly.. no violent reaction whatsoever.

Yaknow, when I got my BB600 flooded NiCDs, they were mostly white
inside, with cruft and the barest amount of fluid. Strung them together,
hit them with the Elec-trak's 45 volt charger.

Voltage ripped to 45v with no current, then after a few minutes the
current came up and the voltage came down. Once fully charged, the
batteries had the proper fluid.

Note these things are stored discharged. Shorted out discharged, usually
with a strap across each battery terminal.

Try to charge one. You might find it works.

Chris
EVDL Administrator
2008-07-15 07:16:02 UTC
Permalink
On 15 Jul 2008 at 0:40, Christopher Zach wrote:

> Once fully charged, the batteries had the proper fluid.

Hmm, Christopher may be on to something. This >is< normal behaviour for
flooded NiCd batteries. When they're flat you'd swear they're dry.

Alas, I don't know what to suggest next ...

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Neon John
2008-07-14 22:06:06 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:41:53 -0600, "Zeke Yewdall" <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

>Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
>violently to having water put in it. Very strange....

It's probably not KOH anymore, but instead potassium carbonate, formed by
absorbing carbon dioxide out of the air. That's the usual fate of a KOH
solution that has any access to air. Even if it is still KOH, there won't be
much surface area exposed so any heat liberation would be small.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Save the whales, collect the whole set!
Zeke Yewdall
2008-07-14 22:41:42 UTC
Permalink
yeah.... sounds like it could have been carbonated. That's typically what
happens to kill flooded alkaline batteries over time is carbonation of the
electrolyte, though I've never seen one dried out after being carbonated.
If you can get all the old carbonation off you might be able to put new good
electrolyte in there and bring it back to life, but I really don't know.

Z

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Neon John <jgd-7o1kDznDRwqaMJb+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:41:53 -0600, "Zeke Yewdall" <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
> >Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
> >violently to having water put in it. Very strange....
>
> It's probably not KOH anymore, but instead potassium carbonate, formed by
> absorbing carbon dioxide out of the air. That's the usual fate of a KOH
> solution that has any access to air. Even if it is still KOH, there won't
> be
> much surface area exposed so any heat liberation would be small.
>
> John
> --
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.neon-john.com
> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> Save the whales, collect the whole set!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
Werner Peters
2008-07-15 00:07:40 UTC
Permalink
The saga continues. I phoned the company BeUtilityFree, and talked to
someone there about NiFe batterires. Apparently they are the only company in
the U.S. that still make them.

He had no clue about what happens when the batteries are exposed to air. He
said that if it was Potassium Hydroxide that had solidified, the batteries
could be brought back..

But he didn't know how to advise me with this problem. He thinks they might
be toast.

Every couple of hours I go and add some more distilled water till they
overflow. So it is soaking into the white stuff. Hopefully it will soften
enough to be able to flush that stuff out. Any chemists out there who can
give me hope?
29 batteries at $10 a piece if I can make them work.

If not, a sad trip to the recycling station.

Werner

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> yeah.... sounds like it could have been carbonated. That's typically what
> happens to kill flooded alkaline batteries over time is carbonation of the
> electrolyte, though I've never seen one dried out after being carbonated.
> If you can get all the old carbonation off you might be able to put new
> good
> electrolyte in there and bring it back to life, but I really don't know.
>
> Z
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Neon John <jgd-7o1kDznDRwqaMJb+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:41:53 -0600, "Zeke Yewdall" <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
> > >violently to having water put in it. Very strange....
> >
> > It's probably not KOH anymore, but instead potassium carbonate, formed by
> > absorbing carbon dioxide out of the air. That's the usual fate of a KOH
> > solution that has any access to air. Even if it is still KOH, there
> won't
> > be
> > much surface area exposed so any heat liberation would be small.
> >
> > John
> > --
> > John De Armond
> > See my website for my current email address
> > http://www.neon-john.com
> > http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> > Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> > Save the whales, collect the whole set!
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
R Patterson
2008-07-15 02:02:46 UTC
Permalink
All that have mentioned that it isn't KOH are correct, the reaction would be
exothermic. If the battery didn't heat up then there was probably little to
no KOH left to react. Use a pH indicator (phenolphthalein will turn purple
in the present of a strong base such as KOH; tumeric will work also, you may
have some in the spice rack of your kitchen) to see what you have. You may
have some salts of potassium present such as KxOy along with carbonate. I
don't know what the solubilities are to recommend a solvent, but you can
look them up (wiki undoubtedly has something on solubilities of these two
compounds). It is far better to be a white participant than black or red.
I sorta suspect that if you fill them with some KOH, charge, drain, refill
and charge they'll be ok. If they don't take a charge at all ... then you
can call them toast (I'd love to tell you they're toast and to send them to
me for disposal!). Did you obtain your KOH yet? Powder or solution? It
would be interesting to react some of the residue with some KOH and some
H2SO4; if it's carbonate it will bubble like mad with the sulfuric acid as
CO2 is given off. Good luck with 'em, if you get tired of messing with them
let me know!

Ralph.

On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> The saga continues. I phoned the company BeUtilityFree, and talked to
> someone there about NiFe batterires. Apparently they are the only company
> in
> the U.S. that still make them.
>
> He had no clue about what happens when the batteries are exposed to air. He
> said that if it was Potassium Hydroxide that had solidified, the batteries
> could be brought back..
>
> But he didn't know how to advise me with this problem. He thinks they might
> be toast.
>
> Every couple of hours I go and add some more distilled water till they
> overflow. So it is soaking into the white stuff. Hopefully it will soften
> enough to be able to flush that stuff out. Any chemists out there who can
> give me hope?
> 29 batteries at $10 a piece if I can make them work.
>
> If not, a sad trip to the recycling station.
>
> Werner
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> > yeah.... sounds like it could have been carbonated. That's typically
> what
> > happens to kill flooded alkaline batteries over time is carbonation of
> the
> > electrolyte, though I've never seen one dried out after being carbonated.
> > If you can get all the old carbonation off you might be able to put new
> > good
> > electrolyte in there and bring it back to life, but I really don't know.
> >
> > Z
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Neon John <jgd-7o1kDznDRwqaMJb+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:41:53 -0600, "Zeke Yewdall" <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org
> >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
> > > >violently to having water put in it. Very strange....
> > >
> > > It's probably not KOH anymore, but instead potassium carbonate, formed
> by
> > > absorbing carbon dioxide out of the air. That's the usual fate of a
> KOH
> > > solution that has any access to air. Even if it is still KOH, there
> > won't
> > > be
> > > much surface area exposed so any heat liberation would be small.
> > >
> > > John
> > > --
> > > John De Armond
> > > See my website for my current email address
> > > http://www.neon-john.com
> > > http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
> > > Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
> > > Save the whales, collect the whole set!
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > > For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
Victory belongs to the most persevering.
--Napoleon Bonaparte--
Roger Heuckeroth
2008-07-15 14:32:57 UTC
Permalink
One thing not to do is add any kind of acid directly to the battery.
It will destroy the anode. The slow dissolving method with just
distilled or DI water is much better.

On Jul 14, 2008, at 10:02 PM, R Patterson wrote:

> All that have mentioned that it isn't KOH are correct, the reaction
> would be
> exothermic. If the battery didn't heat up then there was probably
> little to
> no KOH left to react. Use a pH indicator (phenolphthalein will turn
> purple
> in the present of a strong base such as KOH; tumeric will work also,
> you may
> have some in the spice rack of your kitchen) to see what you have.
> You may
> have some salts of potassium present such as KxOy along with
> carbonate. I
> don't know what the solubilities are to recommend a solvent, but you
> can
> look them up (wiki undoubtedly has something on solubilities of
> these two
> compounds). It is far better to be a white participant than black
> or red.
> I sorta suspect that if you fill them with some KOH, charge, drain,
> refill
> and charge they'll be ok. If they don't take a charge at all ...
> then you
> can call them toast (I'd love to tell you they're toast and to send
> them to
> me for disposal!). Did you obtain your KOH yet? Powder or
> solution? It
> would be interesting to react some of the residue with some KOH and
> some
> H2SO4; if it's carbonate it will bubble like mad with the sulfuric
> acid as
> CO2 is given off. Good luck with 'em, if you get tired of messing
> with them
> let me know!
>
> Ralph.
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Werner Peters
> <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> The saga continues. I phoned the company BeUtilityFree, and talked to
>> someone there about NiFe batterires. Apparently they are the only
>> company
>> in
>> the U.S. that still make them.
>>
>> He had no clue about what happens when the batteries are exposed to
>> air. He
>> said that if it was Potassium Hydroxide that had solidified, the
>> batteries
>> could be brought back..
>>
>> But he didn't know how to advise me with this problem. He thinks
>> they might
>> be toast.
>>
>> Every couple of hours I go and add some more distilled water till
>> they
>> overflow. So it is soaking into the white stuff. Hopefully it will
>> soften
>> enough to be able to flush that stuff out. Any chemists out there
>> who can
>> give me hope?
>> 29 batteries at $10 a piece if I can make them work.
>>
>> If not, a sad trip to the recycling station.
>>
>> Werner
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> yeah.... sounds like it could have been carbonated. That's
>>> typically
>> what
>>> happens to kill flooded alkaline batteries over time is
>>> carbonation of
>> the
>>> electrolyte, though I've never seen one dried out after being
>>> carbonated.
>>> If you can get all the old carbonation off you might be able to
>>> put new
>>> good
>>> electrolyte in there and bring it back to life, but I really don't
>>> know.
>>>
>>> Z
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Neon John <jgd-7o1kDznDRwqaMJb+***@public.gmane.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:41:53 -0600, "Zeke Yewdall" <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org
>>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted
>>>>> rather
>>>>> violently to having water put in it. Very strange....
>>>>
>>>> It's probably not KOH anymore, but instead potassium carbonate,
>>>> formed
>> by
>>>> absorbing carbon dioxide out of the air. That's the usual fate
>>>> of a
>> KOH
>>>> solution that has any access to air. Even if it is still KOH,
>>>> there
>>> won't
>>>> be
>>>> much surface area exposed so any heat liberation would be small.
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>> --
>>>> John De Armond
>>>> See my website for my current email address
>>>> http://www.neon-john.com
>>>> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
>>>> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
>>>> Save the whales, collect the whole set!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>>>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ********************************************
>> www.westmountparkchurch.org
>> www.thesummitchurch.ca
>> ********************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Victory belongs to the most persevering.
> --Napoleon Bonaparte--
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> ev
David Sharpe
2008-07-15 09:00:04 UTC
Permalink
You should be able to remove the old salts with applications of boiling
water, dont add H2S04 or it will be curtains for the cells.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "R Patterson" <chemcat9-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev-UWgVIey+***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nickel Iron batteries


> All that have mentioned that it isn't KOH are correct, the reaction would
> be
> exothermic. If the battery didn't heat up then there was probably little
> to
> no KOH left to react. Use a pH indicator (phenolphthalein will turn
> purple
> in the present of a strong base such as KOH; tumeric will work also, you
> may
> have some in the spice rack of your kitchen) to see what you have. You
> may
> have some salts of potassium present such as KxOy along with carbonate. I
> don't know what the solubilities are to recommend a solvent, but you can
> look them up (wiki undoubtedly has something on solubilities of these two
> compounds). It is far better to be a white participant than black or red.
> I sorta suspect that if you fill them with some KOH, charge, drain, refill
> and charge they'll be ok. If they don't take a charge at all ... then you
> can call them toast (I'd love to tell you they're toast and to send them
> to
> me for disposal!). Did you obtain your KOH yet? Powder or solution? It
> would be interesting to react some of the residue with some KOH and some
> H2SO4; if it's carbonate it will bubble like mad with the sulfuric acid as
> CO2 is given off. Good luck with 'em, if you get tired of messing with
> them
> let me know!
>
> Ralph.
>
> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 8:07 PM, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
>> The saga continues. I phoned the company BeUtilityFree, and talked to
>> someone there about NiFe batterires. Apparently they are the only company
>> in
>> the U.S. that still make them.
>>
>> He had no clue about what happens when the batteries are exposed to air.
>> He
>> said that if it was Potassium Hydroxide that had solidified, the
>> batteries
>> could be brought back..
>>
>> But he didn't know how to advise me with this problem. He thinks they
>> might
>> be toast.
>>
>> Every couple of hours I go and add some more distilled water till they
>> overflow. So it is soaking into the white stuff. Hopefully it will
>> soften
>> enough to be able to flush that stuff out. Any chemists out there who can
>> give me hope?
>> 29 batteries at $10 a piece if I can make them work.
>>
>> If not, a sad trip to the recycling station.
>>
>> Werner
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 6:41 PM, Zeke Yewdall <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>> > yeah.... sounds like it could have been carbonated. That's typically
>> what
>> > happens to kill flooded alkaline batteries over time is carbonation of
>> the
>> > electrolyte, though I've never seen one dried out after being
>> > carbonated.
>> > If you can get all the old carbonation off you might be able to put new
>> > good
>> > electrolyte in there and bring it back to life, but I really don't
>> > know.
>> >
>> > Z
>> >
>> > On Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 4:06 PM, Neon John <jgd-7o1kDznDRwqaMJb+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 14:41:53 -0600, "Zeke Yewdall"
>> > > <zyewdall-***@public.gmane.org
>> >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >Hmmmm. If that is dried KOH in there, it should have reacted rather
>> > > >violently to having water put in it. Very strange....
>> > >
>> > > It's probably not KOH anymore, but instead potassium carbonate,
>> > > formed
>> by
>> > > absorbing carbon dioxide out of the air. That's the usual fate of a
>> KOH
>> > > solution that has any access to air. Even if it is still KOH, there
>> > won't
>> > > be
>> > > much surface area exposed so any heat liberation would be small.
>> > >
>> > > John
>> > > --
>> > > John De Armond
>> > > See my website for my current email address
>> > > http://www.neon-john.com
>> > > http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
>> > > Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
>> > > Save the whales, collect the whole set!
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> > > For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> ********************************************
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>> www.thesummitchurch.ca
>> ********************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Victory belongs to the most persevering.
> --Napoleon Bonaparte--
>
> _______________________________________________
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Werner Peters
2008-07-16 00:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Status update on the NiFe batts:

We got power!

We put a volt meter on a battery that I had only topped off with distilled
water and hadn't charged yet and it shows 6.5 volts.

we put a small hub motor on it and it ran down very quickly. Charged it up
with a trickle setting, and did that 2 or three times, before we realized..
we should be timing the discharges to see if we are getting improvement.
Next time.

But I am excited that they are not entirely dead.
Werner
Werner Peters
2008-07-16 01:39:03 UTC
Permalink
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
Date: Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nickel Iron batteries
To: Chris Zach <cz-***@public.gmane.org>


Allright.. sorry for flooding the board. Okay, I'm not sorry. I am excited
though.

The power is deifnietely increasing. I charged the battery for an hour, and
now the electric motor I have for discharge purposes has been running steady
for the past 60 minutes!! as contrasted with my first discharge, which
lasted about 3 minutes!

Werner

On Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Chris Zach <cz-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Werner Peters wrote:
>
>> Status update on the NiFe batts:
>>
>> We got power!
>>
>> We put a volt meter on a battery that I had only topped off with distilled
>> water and hadn't charged yet and it shows 6.5 volts.
>>
>> we put a small hub motor on it and it ran down very quickly. Charged it up
>> with a trickle setting, and did that 2 or three times, before we
>> realized..
>> we should be timing the discharges to see if we are getting improvement.
>> Next time.
>>
>
> Really: Let them charge for a bit. If they track my BB600's (and they
> should, it's kind of the same thing) they should go to 1.3 volts per cell
> for a long while, then be "full" at 1.5-1.55 volts per cell. So if you
> charge one at constant current it should go to 6.5 volts, stay there
> forever, then go up to 7.5 to 7.75 volts.
>
> 6 volt car battery charger should get you in the ballpark.
>
> Oh, and if you topped them off, they are going to vent a lot. Let them.
>
> Chris
>



--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************



--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
Christopher Zach
2008-07-16 03:11:36 UTC
Permalink
Werner Peters wrote:
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
> Date: Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nickel Iron batteries
> To: Chris Zach <cz-***@public.gmane.org>
>
>
> Allright.. sorry for flooding the board. Okay, I'm not sorry. I am excited
> though.
>
> The power is deifnietely increasing. I charged the battery for an hour, and
> now the electric motor I have for discharge purposes has been running steady
> for the past 60 minutes!! as contrasted with my first discharge, which
> lasted about 3 minutes!

They're supposed to last for a long time, keep charging them, check in
every hour or so, just keep an eye on the voltage. Let it get into the
sevens.

Another thing I have noticed: If you charge NiCDs hard (for me that's
20a on the Elec-trak, 7a on the truck) they have a lower internal
resistance than if you charge them slowly (2a or less). These are 30ah
cells.

Chris
Neon John
2008-07-16 03:56:55 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:39:03 -0400, "Werner Peters" <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
wrote:

>Allright.. sorry for flooding the board. Okay, I'm not sorry. I am excited
>though.

I don't blame you!

>
>The power is deifnietely increasing. I charged the battery for an hour, and
>now the electric motor I have for discharge purposes has been running steady
>for the past 60 minutes!! as contrasted with my first discharge, which
>lasted about 3 minutes!

I'm a bit uncomfortable with this. I'm hampered by not knowing enough about
NiFe chemistry but my concern is that if the electrolyte is mostly carbonate,
it might damage one polarity of plates or the other. If those were my
batteries, especially if I'd gotten them that cheaply :-), I'd want to find
out before I cycled them any more.

I KNOW what I'd do if those were mine. I'd flush out all the old stuff and
start over with fresh, new electrolyte. Going strictly from the pix that you
posted, I think that I'd drill a small hole in the top of each cell and snake
in a tube to as close to the bottom as possible. I'd flush the cells with
warm water (filtered tap water should be fine as long as it isn't particularly
hard, not too heavily chlorinated and is completely flushed out with distilled
water afterward) until all the crud was gone. I'd judge that with either
Phenolphthalein, litmus paper or pH paper.

I'd want to see the flush water being as close to pH 7 (neutral) as possible.
Phenolphthalein changes from clear to pink at about pH 8.2. Be aware that a
strongly basic solution such as the electrolyte would be if of the proper
concentration burns out the color after a short period of time. You can
usually get pH paper at swimming pool and water treatment suppliers so that
might be the easiest to get.

I'd replace the KOH with reagent-grade solution, mixed to the specified
concentration as best I could determine it. If all else fails (I'd be shocked
to hear that Rod doesn't have the specs :-), I'd look at Edison's original
patent. Since AFIK, the KOH is there simply to provide conductivity and does
not enter into the reaction, the concentration should not be that critical. I
think that this is true but again, I'm hampered by a lack of in-depth
knowledge so don't go off and do it without researching things first.

The drilled holes can be plastic welded shut (http://www.urethanesupply.com)*
afterward. I'd go the plastic weld route instead of epoxy or some other plug,
as welding is as permanent and strong as the underlying plastic.

*I didn't want to pay Urethane's inflated prices for what are basically
soldering irons so I ordered the shoe that screws into the iron and brazed it
to a Weller gun-type soldering iron tip. This is the gun-type that sends a
heavy current through the tip to produce heat. This works very well.

In this case, I'd buy the welding rods from urethane and make up my own welder
from whatever is handy. Since this is basically a plug weld, even a plain old
cheapo soldering iron, perhaps power-reduced using a variac or light dimmer,
should work fine. I should add that Harbor Freight offers a nice but cheap
hot air welder. I have one that works fine.

One more comment. Here is a method that almost always gets me past the front
desk. I'm referring to Eagle-Picher here now. Pose as a journalist. In this
instance, you're writing an article about the history of NiFe batteries in
transportation and would like to talk to someone who knows about E-P's
activities. You'll invariably get shuffled off to public relations so it
might be easier to ask for them in the beginning.

Tell the PR guy specifically that you'd like to talk to any of the old hands
who were involved in NiFe battery design or production. If they still hold
out with the "no one is here any longer", ask if they'll give you the names of
any of the old-timers. Don't be surprised if they say no. Privacy BS and
all. Then ask if they'd pass along a message from you to the old-timers
asking them to call you. Most guys are flattered at such attention and will
call right back.

In the rare instance where PR won't work with you, sometimes someone in Human
Resources will. If that fails, then hit the library or wherever you have to
go to gain access to Lexis-Nexis and search for publications that involve E-P
and the NiFe battery. Invariably some names are printed in such articles.

Another good source that is available to the public is to search the SAE
publication database. You can't access papers for free but you can get paper
names, authors' names and abstracts.

If you can't find public contact information for the names that you come up
with, go back to E-P and tell them that you'd like to get in touch with so and
so and would they please pass along your contact info and a request for a
call? They're a LOT more likely to do that once they have a particular
person's name.

Once you make that first contact, be sure to ask for other names. Your list
will expand geometrically.

These are all standard journalistic techniques and they work. And of course,
after you get your information, you're going to write an article for the list
about what you learned so that you won't have mis-represented yourself, right?
:-)

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
You have a magnetic personality... That must be why all your mental floppies are blank.
David Nelson
2008-07-16 04:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Here is a link to some info about NiFe batteries from a company which
imports them:

http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=106:Ni-FeFAQ&catid=42:Nickel-Iron%20Batteries

http://tinyurl.com/6m9rvj

HTH
--
David D. Nelson

http://evalbum.com/1328
Andre' Blanchard
2008-07-16 12:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Just in case no one posted this link, here is a scanned booklet on care and
feeding of Edison's batteries.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/~edurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
EVDL Administrator
2008-07-16 17:16:32 UTC
Permalink
On 16 Jul 2008 at 7:08, Andre' Blanchard wrote:

> Just in case no one posted this link, here is a scanned booklet on care and
> feeding of Edison's batteries.
> http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/~edurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html

Thanks for posting that, Andre'. However, that source is missing one of the
files. Here's the original page (moved) :

http://www.oldengine.org/members/durand/Otherstuff/Edison.html

Very interesting information about NiFe from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Werner Peters
2008-07-17 01:19:18 UTC
Permalink
OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit battery
genocide. With one battery.
I had to know what I was dealing with. I couldn't stand the guessing game
and the many contingency suggestions and warnings that were coming my way.
(i.e. if this, then do a, b and c.., but if not then, etc..)

So I cut a battery open. Here is the picture.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N00/2675165409/

I have learned a big lesson. Never jump to conclusions without verification.

We assumed the worst: i.e. massive crystallization of the electrolyte. the
plastic battery walls were white colored 3/4 way up the sides, and 2 of the
batteries had some crusty white stuff plugging the hydration ports. SO, I
(and a few folks who were with me) assumed that the white was an indication
of solid crystallization, or at least a semi-solid pasty goop, because we
saw no liquid.

Well, the plastic walls WERE white and the top 1/3 of the walls were
discolored black on the inside!

And there was no crystallization evident to the naked eye. The plates were
as clean as can be. I could hardly believe my eyes.

White milky fluid did flow when I turned the battery on its head, but no
solid crystals. I hosed that alkaline down to a harmless status. it smelled
like wet gyproc walls.

Also, the white spots you see in the pics are white pieces of plastic from
cutting it open, not crystals.

And the battery that I am charging is getting stronger. The motor has been
runnig for 4 hours on 1 charge.

I am quite relieved. Losing one battery was worth it. I am buying these
babies.

Werner






On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:16 PM, EVDL Administrator <evpost-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On 16 Jul 2008 at 7:08, Andre' Blanchard wrote:
>
> > Just in case no one posted this link, here is a scanned booklet on care
> and
> > feeding of Edison's batteries.
> >
> http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/~edurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html<http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/%7Eedurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html>
>
> Thanks for posting that, Andre'. However, that source is missing one of
> the
> files. Here's the original page (moved) :
>
> http://www.oldengine.org/members/durand/Otherstuff/Edison.html
>
> Very interesting information about NiFe from the horse's mouth, so to
> speak.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>
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> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
g***@public.gmane.org
2008-07-17 02:20:12 UTC
Permalink
No, what I hate is the presumptions that flowed on this topic. Caused
a battery to die and others to be unsure. This is what is caused by
misinformation and pure speculation. Speculation from those who know
nothing can be very dangerous.

I am glad to hear that the batteries are fine. I am on the hunt for
some for our solar backup. I hope to find some old ones that someone
may think is dead and wants to sell for a cheap price. I'd love to
find a deal like you have found.

Pete



On Jul 16, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Werner Peters wrote:

> OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit
> battery
> genocide. With one battery.
> I had to know what I was dealing with. I couldn't stand the guessing
> game
> and the many contingency suggestions and warnings that were coming
> my way.
> (i.e. if this, then do a, b and c.., but if not then, etc..)
>
> So I cut a battery open. Here is the picture.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N00/2675165409/
>
> I have learned a big lesson. Never jump to conclusions without
> verification.
>
> We assumed the worst: i.e. massive crystallization of the
> electrolyte. the
> plastic battery walls were white colored 3/4 way up the sides, and 2
> of the
> batteries had some crusty white stuff plugging the hydration ports.
> SO, I
> (and a few folks who were with me) assumed that the white was an
> indication
> of solid crystallization, or at least a semi-solid pasty goop,
> because we
> saw no liquid.
>
> Well, the plastic walls WERE white and the top 1/3 of the walls were
> discolored black on the inside!
>
> And there was no crystallization evident to the naked eye. The
> plates were
> as clean as can be. I could hardly believe my eyes.
>
> White milky fluid did flow when I turned the battery on its head,
> but no
> solid crystals. I hosed that alkaline down to a harmless status. it
> smelled
> like wet gyproc walls.
>
> Also, the white spots you see in the pics are white pieces of
> plastic from
> cutting it open, not crystals.
>
> And the battery that I am charging is getting stronger. The motor
> has been
> runnig for 4 hours on 1 charge.
>
> I am quite relieved. Losing one battery was worth it. I am buying
> these
> babies.
>
> Werner
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:16 PM, EVDL Administrator
> <evpost-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> On 16 Jul 2008 at 7:08, Andre' Blanchard wrote:
>>
>>> Just in case no one posted this link, here is a scanned booklet on
>>> care
>> and
>>> feeding of Edison's batteries.
>>>
>> http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/
>> ~edurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html<http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/%7Eedurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html
>> >
>>
>> Thanks for posting that, Andre'. However, that source is missing
>> one of
>> the
>> files. Here's the original page (moved) :
>>
>> http://www.oldengine.org/members/durand/Otherstuff/Edison.html
>>
>> Very interesting information about NiFe from the horse's mouth, so to
>> speak.
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
>> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> ev
>
m gol
2008-07-17 03:01:19 UTC
Permalink
What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 6:20 PM, <gottdi-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> No, what I hate is the presumptions that flowed on this topic. Caused
> a battery to die and others to be unsure. This is what is caused by
> misinformation and pure speculation. Speculation from those who know
> nothing can be very dangerous.
>
> I am glad to hear that the batteries are fine. I am on the hunt for
> some for our solar backup. I hope to find some old ones that someone
> may think is dead and wants to sell for a cheap price. I'd love to
> find a deal like you have found.
>
> Pete
>
>
>
> On Jul 16, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Werner Peters wrote:
>
> > OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit
> > battery
> > genocide. With one battery.
> > I had to know what I was dealing with. I couldn't stand the guessing
> > game
> > and the many contingency suggestions and warnings that were coming
> > my way.
> > (i.e. if this, then do a, b and c.., but if not then, etc..)
> >
> > So I cut a battery open. Here is the picture.
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N00/2675165409/
> >
> > I have learned a big lesson. Never jump to conclusions without
> > verification.
> >
> > We assumed the worst: i.e. massive crystallization of the
> > electrolyte. the
> > plastic battery walls were white colored 3/4 way up the sides, and 2
> > of the
> > batteries had some crusty white stuff plugging the hydration ports.
> > SO, I
> > (and a few folks who were with me) assumed that the white was an
> > indication
> > of solid crystallization, or at least a semi-solid pasty goop,
> > because we
> > saw no liquid.
> >
> > Well, the plastic walls WERE white and the top 1/3 of the walls were
> > discolored black on the inside!
> >
> > And there was no crystallization evident to the naked eye. The
> > plates were
> > as clean as can be. I could hardly believe my eyes.
> >
> > White milky fluid did flow when I turned the battery on its head,
> > but no
> > solid crystals. I hosed that alkaline down to a harmless status. it
> > smelled
> > like wet gyproc walls.
> >
> > Also, the white spots you see in the pics are white pieces of
> > plastic from
> > cutting it open, not crystals.
> >
> > And the battery that I am charging is getting stronger. The motor
> > has been
> > runnig for 4 hours on 1 charge.
> >
> > I am quite relieved. Losing one battery was worth it. I am buying
> > these
> > babies.
> >
> > Werner
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:16 PM, EVDL Administrator
> > <evpost-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On 16 Jul 2008 at 7:08, Andre' Blanchard wrote:
> >>
> >>> Just in case no one posted this link, here is a scanned booklet on
> >>> care
> >> and
> >>> feeding of Edison's batteries.
> >>>
> >> http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/
> >> ~edurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html<
> http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/%7Eedurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> Thanks for posting that, Andre'. However, that source is missing
> >> one of
> >> the
> >> files. Here's the original page (moved) :
> >>
> >> http://www.oldengine.org/members/durand/Otherstuff/Edison.html
> >>
> >> Very interesting information about NiFe from the horse's mouth, so to
> >> speak.
> >>
> >> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> >> EVDL Administrator
> >>
> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
> >> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> >> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> >> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> >> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > ********************************************
> > www.westmountparkchurch.org
> > www.thesummitchurch.ca
> > ********************************************
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
> > ev
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
R Patterson
2008-07-17 03:42:50 UTC
Permalink
eh ... depends upon who you talk to and the environment/application they are
used in. An obvious limitation is the temperature operating range, at lower
temps the batteries can be sluggish; weight to energy/power for some is
limiting.

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:01 PM, m gol <gol.m86-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?
>


--
Victory belongs to the most persevering.
--Napoleon Bonaparte--
Lee Hart
2008-07-17 04:57:50 UTC
Permalink
m gol wrote:
> What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?

NiFe (Edison) cells are nickel based, and so are similar to nicads and
nimh cells. The good points are:

- long life
- not harmed by deep discharges
- not harmed by being left dead
- not harmed by mild overcharging
- very low, stable internal resistance
- not bothered by cold temperatures

The bad points are:

- only 1.2 volts per cell
- don't work well hot
- low efficiency in the last part of their charge cycle
- high gassing rates (need frequent watering if flooded, or need
strong high pressure cases and good seals if sealed)
- nickel is expensive
- poor availability

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Peter VanDerWal
2008-07-16 22:00:41 UTC
Permalink
> m gol wrote:
>> What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?
-snip-
> The bad points are:
>

You forgot to mention that they are very heavy for the amount of energy
they store.
Lee Hart
2008-07-17 12:58:39 UTC
Permalink
m gol wrote:
>>> What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?
>> The bad points are:
>
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> You forgot to mention that they are very heavy for the amount of energy
> they store.

No; actually, they are better than lead-acid in this regard.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
AMPrentice
2008-07-17 06:20:21 UTC
Permalink
Are weights the same similar to lead?
or do the 1.2v per cell mean more material?



Lee Hart wrote:
>
> m gol wrote:
>> What the disadvantage of using NiFe batteries compared to lead?
>
> NiFe (Edison) cells are nickel based, and so are similar to nicads and
> nimh cells. The good points are:
>
> - long life
> - not harmed by deep discharges
> - not harmed by being left dead
> - not harmed by mild overcharging
> - very low, stable internal resistance
> - not bothered by cold temperatures
>
> The bad points are:
>
> - only 1.2 volts per cell
> - don't work well hot
> - low efficiency in the last part of their charge cycle
> - high gassing rates (need frequent watering if flooded, or need
> strong high pressure cases and good seals if sealed)
> - nickel is expensive
> - poor availability
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>


-----
Except from himself and other fellow men,
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Nickel-Iron-batteries-tp18442936p18502272.html
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Lee Hart
2008-07-17 14:13:19 UTC
Permalink
AMPrentice wrote:
> Are weights the same similar to lead?
> or do the 1.2v per cell mean more material?

The Eagle Picher nickel-iron batteries (used in the TEVan) were about
the same physical size as a lead-acid golf cart battery, but delivered
20-50% more energy depending on load.

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Werner Peters
2008-07-17 14:21:23 UTC
Permalink
On the Eagle Picher brochure, it says,

*The Nickel Iron battery can be charged with your current lead acid battery
charger with only minor modifications. Or you may be interested in the quick
charging capabilities available with a new charger manufactured especially
for nickel iron batteries.*

Can anyone explain what these 'minor modifications' might be, and (this is a
long shot) does anyone have a made-for-nickel-iron battery charger in their
attics or garages?

Werner






On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:13 AM, Lee Hart <leeahart-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> AMPrentice wrote:
> > Are weights the same similar to lead?
> > or do the 1.2v per cell mean more material?
>
> The Eagle Picher nickel-iron batteries (used in the TEVan) were about
> the same physical size as a lead-acid golf cart battery, but delivered
> 20-50% more energy depending on load.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
EVDL Administrator
2008-07-17 16:08:55 UTC
Permalink
On 17 Jul 2008 at 10:21, Werner Peters wrote:

> Can anyone explain what these 'minor modifications' might be, and (this is a
> long shot) does anyone have a made-for-nickel-iron battery charger in their
> attics or garages?

As Rod Hower has posted here, he wrote the software to charge these
batteries in the Chrysler TeVan. I don't know whether a TeVan charger can
do its thing without conversing with the other bits of a TeVan; Rod surely
knows MUCH more about that. Nor have I any clue where you'd find a TeVan
charger.

So you might have to apply the principles he used to a different charger. I
hope to hack a Brusa charger to charge these batteries eventually, but don't
hold your breath. ;-)

Anyway, if you can read well commented assembler, grab Rod's source here.


http://www.evdl.org/docs/ep_nife.pdf

This is probably at least as much a "roll your own" project as working with
lithium batteries. However, the NiFe appear to be much more forgiving of
careless charging. Unlike some kinds of lithium, I think you'd have to work
hard to make them burst into flame, though I'll bet you could turn them into
a boiling, molten mess if you really beat them up.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Rush
2008-07-18 01:13:35 UTC
Permalink
The Evdl Admin wrote -

> Anyway, if you can read well commented assembler, grab Rod's source here.
>
>
> http://www.evdl.org/docs/ep_nife.pdf

It is actually here
http://www.evdl.org/docs/tevan_nibatt.zip

Admin's link was for the Nickel Iron Batts

Rush
Tucson, AZ
2000 Insight, 62lmpg, #4965
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
www.TEVA2.com
EVDL Administrator
2008-07-19 05:54:15 UTC
Permalink
On 17 Jul 2008 at 18:13, Rush wrote:

> It is actually here
> http://www.evdl.org/docs/tevan_nibatt.zip

Thanks, Rush. I copied the wrong link from the index page.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Administrator
2008-07-17 16:08:55 UTC
Permalink
On 17 Jul 2008 at 9:13, Lee Hart wrote:

> The Eagle Picher nickel-iron batteries (used in the TEVan) were about
> the same physical size as a lead-acid golf cart battery, but delivered
> 20-50% more energy depending on load.

Their brochure claims 195ah at 200 amps.

http://www.evdl.org/docs/ep_nife.pdf


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Werner Peters
2008-07-17 16:38:42 UTC
Permalink
So yesterday at 5 PM, I attached a motor to my newly charged NiFe battery.

The motor is apparently 280 W.

This morning, the motor is still going.

I left for the office.
At noon, I peek in the garage. The motor is STILL TURNING! But at a very
very slow rate.

The fellow who lent me the motor is astounded.

Werner



On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:08 PM, EVDL Administrator <evpost-***@public.gmane.org>
wrote:

> On 17 Jul 2008 at 9:13, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > The Eagle Picher nickel-iron batteries (used in the TEVan) were about
> > the same physical size as a lead-acid golf cart battery, but delivered
> > 20-50% more energy depending on load.
>
> Their brochure claims 195ah at 200 amps.
>
> http://www.evdl.org/docs/ep_nife.pdf
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


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********************************************
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********************************************
Peter Gabrielsson
2008-07-17 17:05:28 UTC
Permalink
What's written on the motor is not representative of how much it is
consuming, that is load dependent. Put a multimeter in series with the
load and record the amps every hour or so. Integrate the result to get
an idea of capacity. You might want to go with a bigger load though so
you don't have to get up every hour to record the data.




On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> So yesterday at 5 PM, I attached a motor to my newly charged NiFe battery.
>
> The motor is apparently 280 W.
>
> This morning, the motor is still going.
>
> I left for the office.
> At noon, I peek in the garage. The motor is STILL TURNING! But at a very
> very slow rate.
>
> The fellow who lent me the motor is astounded.
>
> Werner
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 12:08 PM, EVDL Administrator <evpost-***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On 17 Jul 2008 at 9:13, Lee Hart wrote:
>>
>> > The Eagle Picher nickel-iron batteries (used in the TEVan) were about
>> > the same physical size as a lead-acid golf cart battery, but delivered
>> > 20-50% more energy depending on load.
>>
>> Their brochure claims 195ah at 200 amps.
>>
>> http://www.evdl.org/docs/ep_nife.pdf
>>
>>
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>>
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
>> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>



--
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AMPrentice
2008-07-18 00:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Are NiFe so expensive that they cant be budget for compared to Lead?
What would say these Eagle Picher NiFe batteries cost as used in the TEVan?

Also what stops the Fe from corroding? Has any other company tried to use
an alternative to Fe for better gains? eg. copper alloys or other alloys
etc?

The population that travel no more than 40-50mph per day could use these
things without ever having to buy batteries again.


Lee Hart wrote:
>
> AMPrentice wrote:
>> Are weights the same similar to lead?
>> or do the 1.2v per cell mean more material?
> The Eagle Picher nickel-iron batteries (used in the TEVan) were about
> the same physical size as a lead-acid golf cart battery, but delivered
> 20-50% more energy depending on load.
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>


-----
Except from himself and other fellow men,
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Nickel-Iron-batteries-tp18442936p18520813.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Jeff Major
2008-07-18 18:45:15 UTC
Permalink
--- On Thu, 7/17/08, AMPrentice <darega-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> What would say these Eagle Picher NiFe batteries cost as
> used in the TEVan?
>

Hey AMP and all,

>From what I know, or heard, Eagle-Picher set up a pilot production line to make these NiFe batteries for Chrysler back in circa 1993. They also were looking at the golf cart market, hence the GC form factor. I have reason to believe that Chrysler paid big bucks for the pilot production, about $1800 per battery (30 per van). Pilot runs of vehicles often cost many times the eventual price. When Chrysler pulled the plug on the TE-Van, EP shut it down, never to make another NiFe.

The university had some donated from Chrysler and ran some tests comparing to T125s, IIRC. This was in an old SCR 96 volt vehicle pulling a trailer with the 16 NiFe's, and the T125s under the hood. Was a lot of years ago, but I think the NiFe's gave like a 30 percent increase in range, but showed more sag, which on this vehicle lowered the speed like from 40 to 35 mph. I was never sure if those students were fully charging and treating the NiFe's correctly. Both the T125s and NiFe's were charged with a 48 volt lift truck charger, same settings I think.

Anyway, my impression of the EP NiFe battery compared to Pb-Acid was maybe 30 to 40 percent better energy density but 10 to 20 percent lower power density. Also the fuss with the hydration on the NiFe. But the 30 year or longer life is nice. I know at least one guy still running NiFe in his TE-Van. What's that? 15 years and counting.

Regards,

Jeff M
Lee Hart
2008-07-18 04:52:49 UTC
Permalink
AMPrentice wrote:
> Are NiFe so expensive that they can't be budget for compared to Lead?
> What would say these Eagle Picher NiFe batteries cost as used in the
> TEVan?

NiFe batteries are more expensive than lead-acid batteries because
nickel is substantially more expensive than lead. However, they last so
long that your ultimate cost per mile can still be good. But you know
how human nature is -- people would rather pay $100 for a battery that
lasts 10,000 miles ($0.01/mile) than $500 for one that lasts 100,000
miles ($0.005/mile).

So, few people bought NiFe batteries. The low demand meant they got
manufactured in lower volumes, which drove their price up even more.
Cheap lead-acids basically ran the NiFe battery off the market.

> Also what stops the Fe from corroding?

It does "corrode" (i.e. is oxidized). In every battery, one plate is
oxidized, and the other is reduced during discharge. The charging
process reverses this, restoring the two plates to the same condition
they were in when you stated. Well, *almost* the same -- the battery
usually accumulates slight differences on each charge/discharge cycle
until the plates have changed so much that they no longer work well
enough to continue.

> Has any other company tried to use an alternative to Fe for better
> gains?

Sure! Tom Edison came up with nickel-iron 100 years ago. About 50 years
later, it was improved by using nickel-cadmium. About 20 years ago, it
was further improved by switching to a complex iron alloy; nimh or
nickel metal hydride, where the "metal" is really an iron alloy.

> The population that travel no more than 40-50mph per day could use these
> things without ever having to buy batteries again.

Exactly. But, the population isn't willing to *pay* for a 100,000 mile
battery!

Consider... we could be using NiFe or NiCad or Nimh for our car starting
batteries. The battery would last the life of the car -- no more having
to replace the lead-acid battery every few years. But *nobody* does it!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
AMPrentice
2008-07-18 12:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Lee, you just reminded me again why its a crazy and ridiculous world we live
in.
Now I hope that there is another Nickel battery possible from another
company
that doesnt sell out or is bought by another Oil conglomerate.


Lee Hart wrote:
>
> AMPrentice wrote:
>> Are NiFe so expensive that they can't be budget for compared to Lead?
>> What would say these Eagle Picher NiFe batteries cost as used in the
>> TEVan?
>
> NiFe batteries are more expensive than lead-acid batteries because
> nickel is substantially more expensive than lead. However, they last so
> long that your ultimate cost per mile can still be good. But you know
> how human nature is -- people would rather pay $100 for a battery that
> lasts 10,000 miles ($0.01/mile) than $500 for one that lasts 100,000
> miles ($0.005/mile).
>
> So, few people bought NiFe batteries. The low demand meant they got
> manufactured in lower volumes, which drove their price up even more.
> Cheap lead-acids basically ran the NiFe battery off the market.
>
>> Also what stops the Fe from corroding?
>
> It does "corrode" (i.e. is oxidized). In every battery, one plate is
> oxidized, and the other is reduced during discharge. The charging
> process reverses this, restoring the two plates to the same condition
> they were in when you stated. Well, *almost* the same -- the battery
> usually accumulates slight differences on each charge/discharge cycle
> until the plates have changed so much that they no longer work well
> enough to continue.
>
> > Has any other company tried to use an alternative to Fe for better
>> gains?
>
> Sure! Tom Edison came up with nickel-iron 100 years ago. About 50 years
> later, it was improved by using nickel-cadmium. About 20 years ago, it
> was further improved by switching to a complex iron alloy; nimh or
> nickel metal hydride, where the "metal" is really an iron alloy.
>
>> The population that travel no more than 40-50mph per day could use these
>> things without ever having to buy batteries again.
>
> Exactly. But, the population isn't willing to *pay* for a 100,000 mile
> battery!
>
> Consider... we could be using NiFe or NiCad or Nimh for our car starting
> batteries. The battery would last the life of the car -- no more having
> to replace the lead-acid battery every few years. But *nobody* does it!
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
>


-----
Except from himself and other fellow men,
Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Nickel-Iron-batteries-tp18442936p18528107.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Werner Peters
2008-07-18 12:58:14 UTC
Permalink
Actually, it's been mentioned on this list before.. there is a company still
producing NiFe..

http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=129&2d2032cd2ecb66e70133da726df4f0c0=9563376df794b959ab130d13799a5793
Apparently the only place you can get 'em in the USA.

I don't know how expensive they are.


Werner

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 8:24 AM, AMPrentice <darega-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

>
> Lee, you just reminded me again why its a crazy and ridiculous world we
> live
> in.
> Now I hope that there is another Nickel battery possible from another
> company
> that doesnt sell out or is bought by another Oil conglomerate.
>
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > AMPrentice wrote:
> >> Are NiFe so expensive that they can't be budget for compared to Lead?
> >> What would say these Eagle Picher NiFe batteries cost as used in the
> >> TEVan?
> >
> > NiFe batteries are more expensive than lead-acid batteries because
> > nickel is substantially more expensive than lead. However, they last so
> > long that your ultimate cost per mile can still be good. But you know
> > how human nature is -- people would rather pay $100 for a battery that
> > lasts 10,000 miles ($0.01/mile) than $500 for one that lasts 100,000
> > miles ($0.005/mile).
> >
> > So, few people bought NiFe batteries. The low demand meant they got
> > manufactured in lower volumes, which drove their price up even more.
> > Cheap lead-acids basically ran the NiFe battery off the market.
> >
> >> Also what stops the Fe from corroding?
> >
> > It does "corrode" (i.e. is oxidized). In every battery, one plate is
> > oxidized, and the other is reduced during discharge. The charging
> > process reverses this, restoring the two plates to the same condition
> > they were in when you stated. Well, *almost* the same -- the battery
> > usually accumulates slight differences on each charge/discharge cycle
> > until the plates have changed so much that they no longer work well
> > enough to continue.
> >
> > > Has any other company tried to use an alternative to Fe for better
> >> gains?
> >
> > Sure! Tom Edison came up with nickel-iron 100 years ago. About 50 years
> > later, it was improved by using nickel-cadmium. About 20 years ago, it
> > was further improved by switching to a complex iron alloy; nimh or
> > nickel metal hydride, where the "metal" is really an iron alloy.
> >
> >> The population that travel no more than 40-50mph per day could use these
> >> things without ever having to buy batteries again.
> >
> > Exactly. But, the population isn't willing to *pay* for a 100,000 mile
> > battery!
> >
> > Consider... we could be using NiFe or NiCad or Nimh for our car starting
> > batteries. The battery would last the life of the car -- no more having
> > to replace the lead-acid battery every few years. But *nobody* does it!
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> -----
> Except from himself and other fellow men,
> Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Nickel-Iron-batteries-tp18442936p18528107.html
> Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
Zeke Yewdall
2008-07-18 13:17:40 UTC
Permalink
Utility Free doesn't actually produce them, but imports them (from either
china, or eastern europe, it says on their website, but I can't remember
right now). They also have a price sheet on the website, for 12 and 24 volt
systems. For EV voltage systems, I think you just add them together, but
not sure if the price will come down any for 100 cells, vs 10 or 20 cells.

Z

On 7/18/08, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> Actually, it's been mentioned on this list before.. there is a company
> still
> producing NiFe..
>
>
> http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=129&2d2032cd2ecb66e70133da726df4f0c0=9563376df794b959ab130d13799a5793
> Apparently the only place you can get 'em in the USA.
>
> I don't know how expensive they are.
>
>
>
> Werner
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 8:24 AM, AMPrentice <darega-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> >
> > Lee, you just reminded me again why its a crazy and ridiculous world we
> > live
> > in.
> > Now I hope that there is another Nickel battery possible from another
> > company
> > that doesnt sell out or is bought by another Oil conglomerate.
> >
> >
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >
> > > AMPrentice wrote:
> > >> Are NiFe so expensive that they can't be budget for compared to Lead?
> > >> What would say these Eagle Picher NiFe batteries cost as used in the
> > >> TEVan?
> > >
> > > NiFe batteries are more expensive than lead-acid batteries because
> > > nickel is substantially more expensive than lead. However, they last so
> > > long that your ultimate cost per mile can still be good. But you know
> > > how human nature is -- people would rather pay $100 for a battery that
> > > lasts 10,000 miles ($0.01/mile) than $500 for one that lasts 100,000
> > > miles ($0.005/mile).
> > >
> > > So, few people bought NiFe batteries. The low demand meant they got
> > > manufactured in lower volumes, which drove their price up even more.
> > > Cheap lead-acids basically ran the NiFe battery off the market.
> > >
> > >> Also what stops the Fe from corroding?
> > >
> > > It does "corrode" (i.e. is oxidized). In every battery, one plate is
> > > oxidized, and the other is reduced during discharge. The charging
> > > process reverses this, restoring the two plates to the same condition
> > > they were in when you stated. Well, *almost* the same -- the battery
> > > usually accumulates slight differences on each charge/discharge cycle
> > > until the plates have changed so much that they no longer work well
> > > enough to continue.
> > >
> > > > Has any other company tried to use an alternative to Fe for better
> > >> gains?
> > >
> > > Sure! Tom Edison came up with nickel-iron 100 years ago. About 50 years
> > > later, it was improved by using nickel-cadmium. About 20 years ago, it
> > > was further improved by switching to a complex iron alloy; nimh or
> > > nickel metal hydride, where the "metal" is really an iron alloy.
> > >
> > >> The population that travel no more than 40-50mph per day could use
> these
> > >> things without ever having to buy batteries again.
> > >
> > > Exactly. But, the population isn't willing to *pay* for a 100,000 mile
> > > battery!
> > >
> > > Consider... we could be using NiFe or NiCad or Nimh for our car
> starting
> > > batteries. The battery would last the life of the car -- no more having
> > > to replace the lead-acid battery every few years. But *nobody* does it!
> > > --
> > > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > > Forget the perfect offering
> > > There is a crack in everything
> > > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > > --
> > > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > > For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > -----
> > Except from himself and other fellow men,
> > Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://www.nabble.com/Nickel-Iron-batteries-tp18442936p18528107.html
> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
> > Nabble.com.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
lyn williams
2008-07-18 13:24:01 UTC
Permalink
wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....

> Utility Free doesn't actually produce them, but imports them (from either
> china, or eastern europe, it says on their website, but I can't remember
> right now). They also have a price sheet on the website, for 12 and 24 volt
> systems. For EV voltage systems, I think you just add them together, but
> not sure if the price will come down any for 100 cells, vs 10 or 20 cells.

--
lyn williams <lyn-***@public.gmane.org>
Peter VanDerWal
2008-07-18 09:05:32 UTC
Permalink
> wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....
>
A 144V pack of 610 AH batteries would weigh almost 6,000 lbs. What are
you planning on converting, a Dump Truck?
Werner Peters
2008-07-18 16:28:51 UTC
Permalink
The batteries on that site are obviously meant for PV systems, not evs.


On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 5:05 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> > wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....
> >
> A 144V pack of 610 AH batteries would weigh almost 6,000 lbs. What are
> you planning on converting, a Dump Truck?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>


--
********************************************
www.westmountparkchurch.org
www.thesummitchurch.ca
********************************************
Zeke Yewdall
2008-07-18 16:36:40 UTC
Permalink
Obviously. If you look at the other site I referenced, that had specs of
all the different flooded NiCad batteries, you notice that they have low
rate, medium rate, and high rate batteries, depending on application --
backup power... or starting 20 cylinder diesel engines in locomotives...
NiFe are likely the same way, and it looks like they are selling the low
rate ones -- no good for EV's :(

Z


On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
wrote:

> The batteries on that site are obviously meant for PV systems, not evs.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 5:05 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
> > > wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....
> > >
> > A 144V pack of 610 AH batteries would weigh almost 6,000 lbs. What are
> > you planning on converting, a Dump Truck?
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> ********************************************
> www.westmountparkchurch.org
> www.thesummitchurch.ca
> ********************************************
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
Zeke Yewdall
2008-07-18 16:34:51 UTC
Permalink
Unimog ! ;) remember that discussion from last fall sometime?

Z

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 3:05 AM, Peter VanDerWal <evdl-xlAVAfeI+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> > wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....
> >
> A 144V pack of 610 AH batteries would weigh almost 6,000 lbs. What are
> you planning on converting, a Dump Truck?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
lyn williams
2008-07-18 17:45:55 UTC
Permalink
nah...just running the numbers on an RV.....

> > wow...$8400 for 24V 610 AH....$50,400 for a 144V pack....
> >
> A 144V pack of 610 AH batteries would weigh almost 6,000 lbs. What are
> you planning on converting, a Dump Truck?

--
lyn williams <lyn-***@public.gmane.org>
Peter VanDerWal
2008-07-18 09:01:51 UTC
Permalink
Ouch! $1,680 for a 24V 122AH (at the 100hr discharge rate!) battery.

And look at the one hour discharge curve. Something seems a bit wrong
with it because the curve bends around and starts going negative in time,
but...
Assuming it's more or less accurate a 120V pack of these discharged at the
one hour rate would start at around 100V and drop like a stone to 50 or 60
volts. That is some serious voltage sag.
Doesn't sound like something I'd like to drive.

A pack of these that is comparable in weight to a 120V pack of T-105s will
only provide approx 8kwh(1 hr rate) vs 11.5kwh from the PbA, and they'd
cost almost $10,000, probably over that once you add shipping.

If you tried to get these up to highway speed, you'd only get maybe 30
miles range. With the voltage sagging down to ~70V, it's be kinda tough
on the motor and controller (over 200 amps battery side to maintain
highway speed)

LiPol looks pretty good (price and performance) compared to these

Apparently the Eagle Picher batteries are significantly different to
these. These don't look like viable EV candidates even if they do last 40
years.

> Utility Free doesn't actually produce them, but imports them (from either
> china, or eastern europe, it says on their website, but I can't remember
> right now). They also have a price sheet on the website, for 12 and 24
> volt
> systems. For EV voltage systems, I think you just add them together, but
> not sure if the price will come down any for 100 cells, vs 10 or 20 cells.
>
> Z
>
> On 7/18/08, Werner Peters <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, it's been mentioned on this list before.. there is a company
>> still
>> producing NiFe..
>>
>>
>> http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=129&2d2032cd2ecb66e70133da726df4f0c0=9563376df794b959ab130d13799a5793
>> Apparently the only place you can get 'em in the USA.
>>
>> I don't know how expensive they are.
>>
>>
>>
>> Werner
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 8:24 AM, AMPrentice <darega-/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > Lee, you just reminded me again why its a crazy and ridiculous world
>> we
>> > live
>> > in.
>> > Now I hope that there is another Nickel battery possible from another
>> > company
>> > that doesnt sell out or is bought by another Oil conglomerate.
>> >
>> >
>> > Lee Hart wrote:
>> > >
>> > > AMPrentice wrote:
>> > >> Are NiFe so expensive that they can't be budget for compared to
>> Lead?
>> > >> What would say these Eagle Picher NiFe batteries cost as used in
>> the
>> > >> TEVan?
>> > >
>> > > NiFe batteries are more expensive than lead-acid batteries because
>> > > nickel is substantially more expensive than lead. However, they last
>> so
>> > > long that your ultimate cost per mile can still be good. But you
>> know
>> > > how human nature is -- people would rather pay $100 for a battery
>> that
>> > > lasts 10,000 miles ($0.01/mile) than $500 for one that lasts 100,000
>> > > miles ($0.005/mile).
>> > >
>> > > So, few people bought NiFe batteries. The low demand meant they got
>> > > manufactured in lower volumes, which drove their price up even more.
>> > > Cheap lead-acids basically ran the NiFe battery off the market.
>> > >
>> > >> Also what stops the Fe from corroding?
>> > >
>> > > It does "corrode" (i.e. is oxidized). In every battery, one plate is
>> > > oxidized, and the other is reduced during discharge. The charging
>> > > process reverses this, restoring the two plates to the same
>> condition
>> > > they were in when you stated. Well, *almost* the same -- the battery
>> > > usually accumulates slight differences on each charge/discharge
>> cycle
>> > > until the plates have changed so much that they no longer work well
>> > > enough to continue.
>> > >
>> > > > Has any other company tried to use an alternative to Fe for
>> better
>> > >> gains?
>> > >
>> > > Sure! Tom Edison came up with nickel-iron 100 years ago. About 50
>> years
>> > > later, it was improved by using nickel-cadmium. About 20 years ago,
>> it
>> > > was further improved by switching to a complex iron alloy; nimh or
>> > > nickel metal hydride, where the "metal" is really an iron alloy.
>> > >
>> > >> The population that travel no more than 40-50mph per day could use
>> these
>> > >> things without ever having to buy batteries again.
>> > >
>> > > Exactly. But, the population isn't willing to *pay* for a 100,000
>> mile
>> > > battery!
>> > >
>> > > Consider... we could be using NiFe or NiCad or Nimh for our car
>> starting
>> > > batteries. The battery would last the life of the car -- no more
>> having
>> > > to replace the lead-acid battery every few years. But *nobody* does
>> it!
>> > > --
>> > > Ring the bells that still can ring
>> > > Forget the perfect offering
>> > > There is a crack in everything
>> > > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>> > > --
>> > > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
>> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> > > For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > -----
>> > Except from himself and other fellow men,
>> > Man is the least endangered of all species. - Me
>> > --
>> > View this message in context:
>> > http://www.nabble.com/Nickel-Iron-batteries-tp18442936p18528107.html
>> > Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
>> > Nabble.com.
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> > For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ********************************************
>> www.westmountparkchurch.org
>> www.thesummitchurch.ca
>> ********************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
Bill Dennis
2008-07-18 16:22:41 UTC
Permalink
I'm going to lightly sand all the terminals and straps on my LCP string
to make sure I'm losing minimal power there. Is there any advantage to
pulling Noalox on the connections while I'm at it?

Thanks.

Bill Dennis
dave cover
2008-07-18 17:40:17 UTC
Permalink
I've used it to protect bare copper busbars from KOH on my NiCads. Seems to
work well, but looks cruddy. I don't know if it causes more resistance in
the connection though.

Dave Cover

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Bill Dennis <wjdennis-r9/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> I'm going to lightly sand all the terminals and straps on my LCP string
> to make sure I'm losing minimal power there. Is there any advantage to
> pulling Noalox on the connections while I'm at it?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
Roland Wiench
2008-07-18 18:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Hello Dave,

I use something similar to this stuff that we use on are high compression
wire terminals. This stuff that I use from Burndy is design for copper to
copper, aluminum to aluminum and copper to aluminum, but it did not work on
my battery terminals at all.

After I put the anti-corrosion stuff on, I could not hardly move my EV. The
1st gear felt like 4th gear, but with lower ampere. I had to remove it all.

The next thing I tried, is that Plastic Dip stuff that is use to insulated
tool handles which is specific to prevent corrosion of battery trays. I use
the black color on the negative and the red color on the positive.

It takes about two coats to cover the battery clamp and terminal. Let it
flow all the way down onto the plastic battery top. If you need to test
out one battery, the sharp test lead will poke through this plastic
covering. To remove it, all you have to do, is cut a thin line through it,
and it will peal off in two pieces.

The last time I got this stuff was at Home Depot which is made by Performix.
LocTite also makes it that you can get at some auto parts store.

Roland


----- Original Message -----
From: "dave cover" <davecover-***@public.gmane.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev-UWgVIey+***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Noalox Worth It?


> I've used it to protect bare copper busbars from KOH on my NiCads. Seems
> to
> work well, but looks cruddy. I don't know if it causes more resistance in
> the connection though.
>
> Dave Cover
>
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Bill Dennis <wjdennis-r9/***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> > I'm going to lightly sand all the terminals and straps on my LCP string
> > to make sure I'm losing minimal power there. Is there any advantage to
> > pulling Noalox on the connections while I'm at it?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Bill Dennis
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> > For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
Neon John
2008-07-18 21:43:07 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:58:14 -0400, "Werner Peters" <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
wrote:

>Actually, it's been mentioned on this list before.. there is a company still
>producing NiFe..
>
>http://www.beutilityfree.com/content/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=129&2d2032cd2ecb66e70133da726df4f0c0=9563376df794b959ab130d13799a5793
>Apparently the only place you can get 'em in the USA.
>
>I don't know how expensive they are.

VERY! I got a price list from 'em. it looked very lithium-like.

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill.
Robert MacDowell
2008-07-17 23:23:57 UTC
Permalink
There are loads of information about NiFe batteries out there. Just the
other day I was looking at a book from the Edison battery company (which
invented them!) The book discussed their characteristics at extreme
length, including their hardiness to abuse. I found it on Google Books.

It made pretty clear that you can't destroy them, and how to resolve
problems you might have. It wasn't the only book on the subject in
Google Books.

If this was 1930, you'd have loads of help. But in modern days, asking
lead-acid people about NiFe battery care is like asking dog owners how
to care for a goldfish.

That's what killed WRM's electric locomotive Kennecott Copper 700. It
was built with 12 tons of NiFe's and could run for *days* away from the
trolley wire. In the 1960s sometime, the owners got confused about how
to maintain the NiFe pack, and just tore it out and put in lead-acids.
10 years later that pack pooped out on them, so they gave 'em to us.

Robert


gottdi-***@public.gmane.org wrote:
> No, what I hate is the presumptions that flowed on this topic. Caused
> a battery to die and others to be unsure. This is what is caused by
> misinformation and pure speculation. Speculation from those who know
> nothing can be very dangerous.
>
> I am glad to hear that the batteries are fine. I am on the hunt for
> some for our solar backup. I hope to find some old ones that someone
> may think is dead and wants to sell for a cheap price. I'd love to
> find a deal like you have found.


> Pete
>
>
>
> On Jul 16, 2008, at 6:19 PM, Werner Peters wrote:
>
>> OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit
>> battery
>> genocide. With one battery.
>> I had to know what I was dealing with. I couldn't stand the guessing
>> game
>> and the many contingency suggestions and warnings that were coming
>> my way.
>> (i.e. if this, then do a, b and c.., but if not then, etc..)
>>
>> So I cut a battery open. Here is the picture.
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N00/2675165409/
>>
>> I have learned a big lesson. Never jump to conclusions without
>> verification.
>>
>> We assumed the worst: i.e. massive crystallization of the
>> electrolyte. the
>> plastic battery walls were white colored 3/4 way up the sides, and 2
>> of the
>> batteries had some crusty white stuff plugging the hydration ports.
>> SO, I
>> (and a few folks who were with me) assumed that the white was an
>> indication
>> of solid crystallization, or at least a semi-solid pasty goop,
>> because we
>> saw no liquid.
>>
>> Well, the plastic walls WERE white and the top 1/3 of the walls were
>> discolored black on the inside!
>>
>> And there was no crystallization evident to the naked eye. The
>> plates were
>> as clean as can be. I could hardly believe my eyes.
>>
>> White milky fluid did flow when I turned the battery on its head,
>> but no
>> solid crystals. I hosed that alkaline down to a harmless status. it
>> smelled
>> like wet gyproc walls.
>>
>> Also, the white spots you see in the pics are white pieces of
>> plastic from
>> cutting it open, not crystals.
>>
>> And the battery that I am charging is getting stronger. The motor
>> has been
>> runnig for 4 hours on 1 charge.
>>
>> I am quite relieved. Losing one battery was worth it. I am buying
>> these
>> babies.
>>
>> Werner
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:16 PM, EVDL Administrator
>> <evpost-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 16 Jul 2008 at 7:08, Andre' Blanchard wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just in case no one posted this link, here is a scanned booklet on
>>>> care
>>> and
>>>> feeding of Edison's batteries.
>>>>
>>> http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/
>>> ~edurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html<http://web.archive.org/web/20041012143321/home.cybertron.com/%7Eedurand/Otherstuff/otherstuff.html
>>> Thanks for posting that, Andre'. However, that source is missing
>>> one of
>>> the
>>> files. Here's the original page (moved) :
>>>
>>> http://www.oldengine.org/members/durand/Otherstuff/Edison.html
>>>
>>> Very interesting information about NiFe from the horse's mouth, so to
>>> speak.
>>>
>>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>>> EVDL Administrator
>>>
>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
>>> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
>>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> ********************************************
>> www.westmountparkchurch.org
>> www.thesummitchurch.ca
>> ********************************************
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
>> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/
>> ev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For general EVDL support, see http://evdl.org/help/
> For subscription options, see http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
Neon John
2008-07-17 03:09:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:19:18 -0400, "Werner Peters" <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
wrote:

>OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit battery
>genocide. With one battery.
>I had to know what I was dealing with. I couldn't stand the guessing game
>and the many contingency suggestions and warnings that were coming my way.
>(i.e. if this, then do a, b and c.., but if not then, etc..)
>
>So I cut a battery open. Here is the picture.
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/***@N00/2675165409/
>
>I have learned a big lesson. Never jump to conclusions without verification.

You got guts, dude! :-)

I wouldn't call it jumping to conclusions but exercising an abundance of
caution when dealing with a very valuable collection of batteries.

Man, you did a number on that case :-( I wonder if it could be plastic-welded
back together?

Can you get any better pictures of each polarity plate? I'd love to see the
details of how they're made.

>White milky fluid did flow when I turned the battery on its head, but no
>solid crystals. I hosed that alkaline down to a harmless status. it smelled
>like wet gyproc walls.

That odor makes me think "carbonate" since drywall mud is a carbonate. KOH
solution doesn't have much of any odor. Can you tell what the separators are
made out of? They look kinda like wood from your posted photos. That might
account for the odor.

I'm still concerned about carbonated electrolyte. I've had to change the
electrolyte twice in my Korean War-vintage wet NiCad starting battery because
of that. These batteries are sealed/baffled well enough to prevent
electrolyte leakage during flight but CO2 STILL got to 'em over their 50 year
life.

The acid test that someone else mentioned would tell the tail. Even vinegar
would do. If there is carbonate present, there will be vigorous bubbling when
the acid hits the solution. I'd expect some carbonate even in the best case
so a little bubbling is to be expected. I'm talking about volcanic bubbling.

>And the battery that I am charging is getting stronger. The motor has been
>runnig for 4 hours on 1 charge.

Kewl.

>
>I am quite relieved. Losing one battery was worth it. I am buying these
>babies.

I thought that they were already yours. If you decide to back out, may I have
the next place in line? Are there any more?

Those chop-chop photos of yours certainly don't demonstrate any exotic
construction that would make these batteries so expensive. They should be
about as cheap to make as PbAs.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Save a tree, kill a beaver
Christopher Zach
2008-07-17 03:35:39 UTC
Permalink
Werner Peters wrote:
> OK, you guys are going to hate me for this, but I had to commit battery
> genocide. With one battery.
Ah well. Sometimes we learn by doing.

> I had to know what I was dealing with. I couldn't stand the guessing game
> and the many contingency suggestions and warnings that were coming my way.
> (i.e. if this, then do a, b and c.., but if not then, etc..)

Most people here do not use NiCDs or NiFe. I have been through this, and
aside from the battery box problem I really like them.

> I have learned a big lesson. Never jump to conclusions without verification.
Good. I'm still working on this myself.

> We assumed the worst: i.e. massive crystallization of the electrolyte. the
> plastic battery walls were white colored 3/4 way up the sides, and 2 of the
> batteries had some crusty white stuff plugging the hydration ports. SO, I
> (and a few folks who were with me) assumed that the white was an indication
> of solid crystallization, or at least a semi-solid pasty goop, because we
> saw no liquid.

Aren't NiCD and NiFe batteries interesting? They are not like Pb
batteries. Assume the best, they really can do well.

> And there was no crystallization evident to the naked eye. The plates were
> as clean as can be. I could hardly believe my eyes.

Sure, they are simply discharged. Happy as little clams.

> White milky fluid did flow when I turned the battery on its head, but no
> solid crystals. I hosed that alkaline down to a harmless status. it smelled
> like wet gyproc walls.

Nope, that's the electrolyte. If you were to charge this battery with a
nice solid 10a charger, you would find it full of water when it's done.

> Also, the white spots you see in the pics are white pieces of plastic from
> cutting it open, not crystals.

Now get a plastic welder and put it back together. Charge it to full,
*then* add enough KOH to bring the electrolyte to 30%. Then charge it
some more.

> And the battery that I am charging is getting stronger. The motor has been
> runnig for 4 hours on 1 charge.

It's fine. Charge hard. Read Edison's manual, even *HE* recommended nice
hard charges and not to do light little ones.

> I am quite relieved. Losing one battery was worth it. I am buying these
> babies.
If there are more, say 50 more, let me know. I'd like to try them in the
truck.

CZ
Neon John
2008-07-17 02:55:14 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 13:16:32 -0400, "EVDL Administrator" <evpost-***@public.gmane.org>
wrote:


>Thanks for posting that, Andre'. However, that source is missing one of the
>files. Here's the original page (moved) :
>
>http://www.oldengine.org/members/durand/Otherstuff/Edison.html
>
>Very interesting information about NiFe from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Kewl. I spent an hour last night trying to find that missing page. Google
just flat missed that site. There's apparently a boytoy pop singer with a
photo titled EDISON8.JPG that is all over the web. Arggg.

Anyway, I like all my stuff in PDF format so I converted the scanned pages to
PDF and posted the file to my site

http://www.neon-john.com/Misc/ebooks/Literature.htm

Under "Electrical and Mechanical"

John

--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom!
Christopher Zach
2008-07-16 14:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Neon John wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 21:39:03 -0400, "Werner Peters" <werner1950-***@public.gmane.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Allright.. sorry for flooding the board. Okay, I'm not sorry. I am excited
>> though.
>
> I don't blame you!
>
>> The power is deifnietely increasing. I charged the battery for an hour, and
>> now the electric motor I have for discharge purposes has been running steady
>> for the past 60 minutes!! as contrasted with my first discharge, which
>> lasted about 3 minutes!
>
> I'm a bit uncomfortable with this. I'm hampered by not knowing enough about
> NiFe chemistry but my concern is that if the electrolyte is mostly carbonate,
> it might damage one polarity of plates or the other. If those were my
> batteries, especially if I'd gotten them that cheaply :-), I'd want to find
> out before I cycled them any more.

It might be, but I don't think it is personally. My BB600's came in
sealed bags, and some of them had traces of white powder on the cells
and in the cells. They also looked bone dry, with the smallest amount of
sludge when you flipped them over.

Charge up, water comes right out of the plates, or wherever it hides in
these things.

> I'd replace the KOH with reagent-grade solution, mixed to the specified
> concentration as best I could determine it. If all else fails (I'd be shocked
> to hear that Rod doesn't have the specs :-), I'd look at Edison's original
> patent. Since AFIK, the KOH is there simply to provide conductivity and does
> not enter into the reaction, the concentration should not be that critical. I
> think that this is true but again, I'm hampered by a lack of in-depth
> knowledge so don't go off and do it without researching things first.

For NiCDs, I believe the ratio is 30% KOH. Mike has balanced his cells,
I have not really bothered at this point. I should.

It will be interesting to read the results of this work. I think
Eagle-Pitcher batteries are an interesting idea, and despite the fact
that my BB600s are starting to digest parts of my battery box, they are
really nice batteries. A cell that was in the 60-80ah size would be
heaven for me.

Re: digestion: I have an Al battery box. To protect it I painted it with
POR15, then lined the box with a double layer of 1ml plastic sheeting.
Then the cells. This last time I pulled some cells I discovered some
grey goo at the bottom of the box, and the POR15 *peeling* in some
places with a grey powder behind it.

POR15 is what I use in the throat of my snowblower, and after 3 years of
blowing snow (and dirt and gravel) it is smooth as glass. So for this
stuff to etch behind it is interesting.

My plan is to pull all cells this fall, strip and re-paint the pack,
then replace the cells with some venting underneath them. This might be
a 3 year maint cycle. Then I could wash the bottom of the cells with
something like vinegar to neutralize any KOH that gets under there.

Chris
Jeff Shanab
2008-07-15 12:47:39 UTC
Permalink
First of all, I am for all electric. solar on vehicle runs AC or
electronics when parked.
Put the solar on the roof and carport.

but...

Maybe a practical car could be achieved. My first thought was to put
some adjustable stilts on the panels.
This way when you get to a parking lot you can park. Raise the panels up
an park under them. Raise the 2 on one side more than another to point
them to the sun.
If it is just for commuting, it may sit around most the time anyway.
Bob Tregilus
2008-07-15 16:34:23 UTC
Permalink
Werner Peters wrote:
>
>
> What does one do?
>
> Werner
>
>

Werner -

At the beginning of the year I put together an event at the Harrah's
National Auto Museum in Reno, Nevada. We had Altairnano and a Phoenix there.
The museum provided a 1914 Detroit Electric with a NiFe traction pack. They
had never cleaned up the car (mechanically) so they went through it. There
was white crusty deposits on the tops of the batteries. The chief restorer
guy said he shoved the stuff back in the cells, added water, and charged it
up. They got a trip around the parking lot out of the deal.

He was in the process of doing some research on the cells so they could
recharge them properly with KOH. I suggest you give him a call. I forget his
name but the number to the museum is 775 933-3300.

Be well,
Bob Tregilus
http://ElectricNevada.org


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View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Nickel-Iron-batteries-tp18442936p18469613.html
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c***@public.gmane.org
2008-07-18 03:59:56 UTC
Permalink
> So yesterday at 5 PM, I attached a motor to my newly charged NiFe battery.
>
> The motor is apparently 280 W.
>
> This morning, the motor is still going.
>
> I left for the office.
> At noon, I peek in the garage. The motor is STILL TURNING! But at a very
> very slow rate.
>
> The fellow who lent me the motor is astounded.
>
> Werner

But what is its unloaded rating?
Werner Peters
2008-07-18 12:09:31 UTC
Permalink
No idea.

WP



> > The fellow who lent me the motor is astounded.
> >
> > Werner
>
> But what is its unloaded rating?
>
>
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