Steve,
Is your worst case really 230 Wh / mile? That's rather incredible
(translates to 4.3 miles / kWh). That's around the *best* I ever get
with my Leaf, in summer. What are you driving, and where?
Peri
------ Original Message ------
From: "Steve Heath" <***@ecumate.com>
To: "Peri Hartman" <***@kotatko.com>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" <***@lists.evdl.org>
Cc:
Sent: 06-Dec-18 9:28:14 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>It could well be. The charts you refer to have so many caveats that the
>figures are only a very rough guide. This is one of the major problem
>of calculating range.
>
>The best mile/Kw I have got has been 180 and the worst is 230. Average
>is 190 and this measurement is based on coulomb counting over the
>distance. i.e. measuring the amount of power supplied by the batteries
>to travel the distance. This is not the same as the amount of power
>from the plug to charge the batteries nor is it the same power that the
>motor uses which causes further complications. The distances btw are
>also near the theoretical maximum that my battery pack can support so
>that the effect of the battery capacity curve cancels out.
>
>If I use the capacity used based on voltage then it can get very silly.
>I was getting figures of 600-700 w/mile because the voltage vs soc is
>non linear. I could drive 25% of the range and the capacity would drop
>to 50%. This did not make sense so I stopped using them and fitted
>coulomb counters. I do use the voltage to predict low battery but the
>rest of the data is just a rough guide. The gauge does look pretty on
>the dash though.
>
>Get the Leafspy and start collecting your own data and use that to
>build up the values for your car. That will indicate exactly what is
>happening.
>
>
>Cheers
>
>Steve
>
>
>On 06/12/2018 16:24, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>So, Steve, are you inferring the the 3.2 miles / kWh number could be
>>inaccurate? If it's reasonably accurate, it becomes irrelevant on how
>>efficiently I'm driving (yes, stop & go makes a big difference).
>>
>>I agree, my capacity and remaining charge estimates may be off. That's
>>where the LeafSpy would help. Again, anyone care to recommend a ODB2
>>device?
>>
>>Peri
>>
>>------ Original Message ------
>>From: "Steve Heath" <***@ecumate.com>
>>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <***@lists.evdl.org>; "Peri
>>Hartman" <***@kotatko.com>
>>Cc: "Haudy Kazemi" <***@umn.edu>
>>Sent: 06-Dec-18 8:00:26 AM
>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>
>>>There is another factor: 14 miles in one hour indicates to me a lot
>>>of stop start running and this can have a serious effect on the
>>>efficiency of the car.
>>>
>>>I do notice that stop start driving is not as efficient as cruising
>>>and there is little or no regen on braking. End result is a 15%
>>>difference is consumption in my experience.
>>>
>>>I can use less energy taking a longer route that has no speed bumps
>>>compared to one with them where I have to slow down and accelerate
>>>from.
>>>
>>>Although my car is a conversion, I do have very good coulomb counting
>>>instrumentation of what goes out and into the batteries and on the
>>>chargers and these agree within 1%. I also have a voltage system
>>>that monitors the voltage and controls engaging Turbo mode if that
>>>will force the battery voltage to drop below the BMS panic level.
>>>What is interesting is that the coulomb counting is pretty well
>>>consistent but the voltage representation can vary as much as 20%.
>>>LiION batteries are very difficult to measure SOC from the voltage
>>>except for the two extremes.
>>>
>>>So what happens is that the coulomb count is ok but the capacity
>>>estimate from the voltage can and does vary.
>>>
>>>So add all these factors up and it can explain where the missing
>>>power has gone.
>>>
>>>I would also expect to use more than 1 kw for heating.
>>>
>>>Definitely worth getting more accurate data.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On 06/12/2018 15:23, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
>>>>Leaf owners can benefit greatly from the LeafSpy app (not free) and
>>>>a
>>>>quality bluetooth OBD2 adapter. They can then look at the detailed
>>>>health
>>>>and capacity stats in app. My guess is 9 bars would be about 16 kWh
>>>>capacity.
>>>>
>>>>You may also be losing energy to sticky brakes. Some brake exercise,
>>>>including using the parking/emergency brake may be in order. Brake
>>>>issues
>>>>are a common issue on gently driven vehicles with regen because the
>>>>brakes
>>>>don't get warmed/worked out much.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018, 13:11 Peri Hartman via EV <***@lists.evdl.org>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Thanks, Collin.
>>>>>That affirms one part of the "mystery": poor range in winter.
>>>>>The other half - missing 3.5 kWh - still persists.
>>>>>Peri
>>>>>
>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>From: "Collin Kidder" <***@kkmfg.com>
>>>>>To: ***@kotatko.com; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
>>>>><***@lists.evdl.org>
>>>>>Cc:
>>>>>Sent: 05-Dec-18 9:13:32 AM
>>>>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>
>>>>>>I have two leafs here - 2012 and 2013. The 2012 is lucky to get 40
>>>>>>miles of range in the winter. In the summer it's closer to 50
>>>>>>miles.
>>>>>>The 2013 can drive somewhere in the range of about 40-45 miles in
>>>>>>Winter and 60-70 miles in Summer. I wouldn't consider any of that
>>>>>>to
>>>>>>be great but that's how it is. As far as I've heard, the batteries
>>>>>>they used in 2011 and 2012 were pretty bad and degrade very badly
>>>>>>over
>>>>>>time. By 2013 the batteries got better then more recently they got
>>>>>>better again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I think there is an issue where the cells do very poorly in Winter
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>you don't get nearly the range you would calculate you should be
>>>>>>able
>>>>>>to get. Be very careful how far you drive in Winter with these
>>>>>>things.
>>>>>>I basically drive back and forth to work and charge when I get to
>>>>>>work
>>>>>>(there's a J1772 6kw charger here). I don't usually have to charge
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>home, even in Winter, even if I drive around a bit between home
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>work. But, I live 9 miles away from work so that's only 18
>>>>>>required
>>>>>>miles to get back and forth. Still, driving 9 miles from work to
>>>>>>home
>>>>>>in Winter will easily take 20% charge, sometimes more. This agrees
>>>>>>with my above guess. 9*5 would be 45 miles range at best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:27 AM Peri Hartman via EV
>>>>>><***@lists.evdl.org>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>Cor,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>So, just to make sure I understand, you have 8 capacity bars,
>>>>>>>which
>>>>>>>you're assuming is
>>>>>>>100% - 15% - 3 * 6.25% = 66% of 24 kWh, or about 16 kWh, correct?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In my case, with between 8 and 9 capacity bars, that would be
>>>>>>>100% - 15% - 2.5 * 6.25% = 69%,
>>>>>>>or 24 kwh * 69% = 16.5 kWh.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>My estimate for the range remaining doesn't change - I used the
>>>>>>>table
>>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>the link below and did not assume them to be linear. So the rest
>>>>>>>of my
>>>>>>>calculations are unchanged.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Still results in 3.5 kWh being "lost" somewhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If someone local (Seattle) has a gid meter and is willing to lend
>>>>>>>it,
>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>might be able to get some more accurate extrapolations. At least
>>>>>>>I'd
>>>>>>>know the true capacity and the true amount of energy used, right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Peri
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>------ Original Message ------
>>>>>>>From: "Cor van de Water via EV" <***@lists.evdl.org>
>>>>>>>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <***@lists.evdl.org>
>>>>>>>Cc: "Cor van de Water" <***@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>Sent: 04-Dec-18 6:48:24 PM
>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Capacity bars are not linear.
>>>>>>>>The 12 bar display is actually anything from 85% to 100%
>>>>>>>>capacity.
>>>>>>>>Below that, every bar stands for 6.25% if I am not mistaken
>>>>>>>>(quoting
>>>>>>> >from memory)
>>>>>>>>So 7 bar capacity can be as low as 100 – 15 – 4 x 6.25% = 60% so
>>>>>>>>less
>>>>>>>>than 15kWh.
>>>>>>>>Also, there is a reason it is called the GOM (Guess-O-Meter).
>>>>>>>>My Leaf has 8 capacity bars. I can drive home and go from 12
>>>>>>>>quickly
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>>10 or 9 and then arrive home with only 6 or 7 bars left.
>>>>>>>>Then drive to work starting with that half charge and arrive at
>>>>>>>>work
>>>>>>>>with still 3 bars left….
>>>>>>>>I have noticed that range bars are not linear, so you can’t say
>>>>>>>>X
>>>>>>>bars
>>>>>>>>is so many kWh left.
>>>>>>>>GIDs are a better measurement, so use LeafSpy and you can much
>>>>>>>>better
>>>>>>>>judge what your Leaf is doing.
>>>>>>>>Hope this helps,
>>>>>>>>Cor.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>From: Peri Hartman via EV
>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 6:13 PM
>>>>>>>>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>>>>>>>>Cc: Peri Hartman
>>>>>>>>Subject: [EVDL] poor 2011 Leaf performance
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Anyone want to take a stab at this mystery - poor performance of
>>>>>>>>my
>>>>>>>>2011
>>>>>>>>Leaf ?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Temp about 45F
>>>>>>>>Heat on: drawing average of about 1 kW
>>>>>>>>"other systems" drawing about .25 kW
>>>>>>>>Drove 14 miles, went from 12 range bars to 5 bars (full charge
>>>>>>>>level
>>>>>>>is
>>>>>>>>9 capacity bars)
>>>>>>>>Average 3.2 miles / kWh
>>>>>>>>Duration about 1 hr.
>>>>>>>>Driving pretty carefully - usually only 2 "balls" on the usage
>>>>>>>>meter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>For electrical systems, I estimate I used about 1.25 kWh.
>>>>>>>>For traction, 14 / 3.2 = about 4.5 kWh
>>>>>>>>Total: 5.75 kWh.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>According to
>>>>>>>>https://electrolease.nz/blog/nissan-leaf-range-charts-and-tables.html
>>>>>>>>5 bars equates to about 45% charge remaining.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Assuming that the capacity bars are linear and I'm between 8 and
>>>>>>>>9,
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>battery should have somewhere near 17 kWh (24 originally).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>45% of that is about 7.5 kWh remaining charge.
>>>>>>>>Add in what I've used, 5.75, makes 13.25 kW - but should be
>>>>>>>>around
>>>>>>>17.
>>>>>>>>Plus extrapolating the mileage: 14 / 45% = 31 miles estimated
>>>>>>>>total
>>>>>>>>range.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What happened to the other 4 kWh?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>And, am I the only one who get 31 miles per charge? This Leaf
>>>>>>>>has had
>>>>>>>>miserable winter range since the beginning. Still don't know
>>>>>>>>why.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Peri
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>
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