[EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof option> too small a surface

[Willie via EV]

(Eight hours of charging TeslaTMs Model 3 from a wall socket will give
you your expected 200-plus miles of range.) Someone's math is off. You
can only get 1KW/h from a wall socket. Maybe 30 miles in 8 hours.

This statement isn't quite accurate.
First, there's no such unit as "KW/h." That has to be a typo. It's like
saying "horsepower per minute."
KWh doesn't work, either. The unit you're looking for is kW -- kilowatts.
Second, it all depends on what kind of "wall socket" it is. Behind my range
on the wall is a receptacle that will deliver 9.6kW (at the NEC required 80%
demand factor) for as long as you wish. Allowing for 90% charging
efficiency, that would charge a Tesla 50kWh battery to 80% SOC in 5 hours
and 48 minutes.
Third, you're a little low even for a regular 20 amp branch-circuit
receptacle. As long as it's a 20 amp rated receptacle, it can deliver up to
80% of the circuit's rated capacity -- 1.92kW -- for an indefinite period.
Even a 15 amp receptacle can give you up to 1.44kW continuously.

Using Tesla supplied 120vac equipment, which will not do more than 12
amps, a Model 3 charges at about 5mph on a "pretty good" 120vac outlet.
Teslas will reduce current draw if there is much voltage drop. So the
stated 200 miles in 8 hours seems inaccurate; 200 miles should take more
like 40 hours.

EVs with 50+ kwh batteries can not be practically be charged on 120vac
if a large fraction of battery capacity is used daily.

One advantage to a Model 3 over a Model S/X is the faster charging due
to higher efficiency. More range added per unit time. On 120vac, the S
will do 3-4 mph. The 3, around 5 mph. At a well functioning 120kw
SuperCharger, a 3 can reach about 450 mph while a S rarely reaches 400 mph.

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[Cor van de Water via EV]

Ah, but that car was *designed* to be efficient to the extreme!
Then you are not wasting a big chunk of the precious solar power on house loads, but *everything* possible goes into the battery!
Dutch engineering frugality at its best 😉 (Dutch are known to be frugal – going Dutch, remember?)
Cor.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Larry Gales via EV
Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2018 12:00 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Larry Gales
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof option> too small asurface

Why has no one mentioned the obvious: the Stella Lux and Stella Vie which
achieve practical solar power because they are extremely lightweight and
sport a 1.2 to 1.5 solar PV. The Dutch team that has produced these street
legal vehicles (4-5 passengers, top speed of 77 mph) is also working on a
production model named "LightYear"

(Eight hours of charging Tesla’s Model 3 from a wall socket will
give you your expected 200-plus miles of range.)
Someone's math is off. You can only get 1KW/h from a wall socket. Maybe 30
miles in 8 hours.
On Saturday, December 8, 2018, 8:05:15 PM CST, brucedp5 via EV <
https://qz.com/1482588/why-teslas-dont-and-cant-have-solar-roofs/
Why Teslas don’t—and can’t—have solar roofs
December 3, 2018 Kabir Chibber
[images
Loading Image...
The only solar-powered cars that work
Loading Image...
The Sono prototype / REUTERS/Andreas Gebert
]
It’s a pretty intuitive question. “Why don’t electric cars have solar
roof[s?]” asked one person in the “No Stupid Questions” area of Reddit.
“Wouldn’t it make sense to have a self sustaining charging capabilities.”
There are similar questions on Quora and elsewhere.
Teslas and other cars run off electricity, drawing from an electric-power
infrastructure that often runs off of dirty fuels. Solar power generates
lots of electricity for free from the sun. Why don’t electric cars have
solar roofs to power them for free?
For one thing, the math makes it quite difficult. Elon Musk briefly
suggested that solar roofs would be an option for the Tesla Model 3, but
later walked it back and explained why. “Putting solar panels on the car
itself?” Musk said in July 2017. “Not that helpful, because the actual
surface of the car is not that much, and cars are often inside. The least
efficient place to put solar is on the car.” It turns out that he had meant
a solar roof that unfolds from the trunk and overs the current car hood.
A Tesla rival, the Karma Revero, actually has a solar roof as an option. As
Wired noted (paywall), modern solar panels are inefficient and convert just
15-20% of the energy that reaches them. So that Revero solar roof, having
received eight hours of pure sunshine, will generate enough power to drive
1.5 miles. (Eight hours of charging Tesla’s Model 3 from a wall socket will
give you your expected 200-plus miles of range.)
On Quora, Chris Harget, a product-marketing manager in the Bay Area,
The top of an electric car has maybe 3–5 square meters of flat space.
Solar panels, even at high noon, usually only produce about 200
watt-hours per square meter.
The most efficient production electric vehicles today (probably the
Hyundai Ioniq and the Tesla Mod 3) would only be able to travel 2–4 miles
on
that amount of electricity…in an hour. Most people could walk faster.
Financially, the cost of the panels and electronics, R&D and assembly
would never pay for itself in the life of the vehicle, compared to charging
from the wall in your garage.
That doesn’t mean no one is trying. There’s a German startup called Sono
Motors that wants to build cars with solar panels. Toyota last year
announced that upcoming Prius hybrid cars would come with Panasonic solar
roofs (paywall).
Still, even as solar panels become more common and more efficient, they
won’t be on most cars anytime soon.
[© qz.com]
+
https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3067447/vattenfall-begins-rollout-of-wind-powered-ev-chargers-in-norfolk
Vattenfall begins rollout of wind-powered EV chargers
04 December 2018 Vattenfall is set to begin rolling out its first UK
electric vehicle (EV) chargers in Norfolk this week, after today announcing
a new partnership with BMM Energy ...
Loading Image...
http://evdl.org/archive/
{brucedp.neocities.org}
--
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[Willie via EV]

From my understanding, the Tesla 3 comes with a portable EVSE than can plug
into a 14-50 receptacle. So depending on the reaction from others in your
household :-), that's a possible option for those occasional times that you
need more range. ("Range receptacle range?")
Come to that, though, since the standard-battery Tesla 3 comes with a 14-50
connector and has only a 32a charger, why would you even want or need a
garage EVSE? Why not just install a 14-50 "welder" receptacle in the garage
and call it done?

I believe the 3 comes with a 48 amp onboard charger. The standard EVSE
limit is 32 amps. Older (and interchangeable) EVSEs from Ss and Xs will
do 40 amps. The portable EVSEs are called "mobile connectors" in
Teslaspeak. Permanently installed Tesla EVSEs are called "wall
connectors". I applaud Tesla for calling them "connectors" rather that
"chargers". Though many insist on calling the EVSEs "chargers". The
wall connectors can do up to 80 amps and can supply the max of 48amps
that the 3 can use.

Early Ss came equipped with a 40amp (10kw) charger. A second identical
charger was optional bringing max charge rate to 80 amps (20kw). Later
Ss and Xs came equipped with a single charger of 70 or 72 amps.

The advantages of installing a wall connector instead of just using the
supplied mobile connector:
1) maximum charge rate can be achieved
2) the mobile connector remains in the car and will be there if needed
rather than forgotten at home
3) the wall connectors come nicely configured to be mounted out of the
way while a mobile connector may end up laying on the floor

I recently decided I needed a supplemental charge while on a leg from
Santa Rosa New Mexico to Midland Texas in my 3. I was semi-dismayed to
find I could charge at an RV park in Levelland Texas at only 32 amps. I
will be looking for a 40 amp mobile connector to replace the standard 32
amp.



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[paul dove via EV]

Because it is a hassle to get it out of the trunk. The other option is to leave it in the garage but then you are on the road without it.

If you can afford a model 3 or up the you can afford a $500 evse for the wall.

Sent from my iPhone

Post by Willie via EV
Using Tesla supplied 120vac equipment, which will not do more than 12
amps, a Model 3 charges at about 5mph on a "pretty good" 120vac outlet.
Teslas will reduce current draw if there is much voltage drop. So the
stated 200 miles in 8 hours seems inaccurate; 200 miles should take
more like 40 hours.

So an 8 hour 120v charge should give the Tesla 3 owner 40 miles of range,
That's about what a typical 1/3-weight-in-lead conversion gets. That works
for conversion owners here on the EVDL, no? Heck, if that's all the driving
you do, then I don't see a big problem, until the day you have to run an
extra errand or otherwise need more range.
From my understanding, the Tesla 3 comes with a portable EVSE than can plug
into a 14-50 receptacle. So depending on the reaction from others in your
household :-), that's a possible option for those occasional times that you
need more range. ("Range receptacle range?")
Come to that, though, since the standard-battery Tesla 3 comes with a 14-50
connector and has only a 32a charger, why would you even want or need a
garage EVSE? Why not just install a 14-50 "welder" receptacle in the garage
and call it done?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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[Larry Gales via EV]

In my analysis of the Stella vehicles, I assume that the 1.5 kW PV array
delivers the overall performance of a 0.9 kW array (60%) mounted on the
roof of a house. But the most important aspects of the Stella vehicles are
their low weight (830 lbs.) and extremely low CD (0.16?). They claim 400
miles with a 15.2 kWh battery, which works out to 26+ miles/kWh. When I
assume a more modest value of 20 miles/kWh, since the average American
family has two cars that are driven a combined 20,000 mile/year (consuming
about 28,000 kWh/year), the Stella Lux would consume 1000 kWh/year, 28
times less. But if you base the energy on the embedded energy of the 1.5
kW solar PV array (averaged over 30 years), even in the Seattle area which
has the worst solar energy in the continental U.S., it works out to about
370 kWh/year, or about 70 times more efficient than a gas engine car.

But if you remove the solar PV from the car and put it on the roof of your
house, we get an efficiency of 100 times better than current gas cars: that
is, we use only 1% of our current energy use.

(Eight hours of charging TeslaTMs Model 3 from a wall socket will give
you your expected 200-plus miles of range.) Someone's math is off. You
can only get 1KW/h from a wall socket. Maybe 30 miles in 8 hours.

This statement isn't quite accurate.
First, there's no such unit as "KW/h." That has to be a typo. It's like
saying "horsepower per minute."
KWh doesn't work, either. The unit you're looking for is kW -- kilowatts.
Second, it all depends on what kind of "wall socket" it is. Behind my
range
on the wall is a receptacle that will deliver 9.6kW (at the NEC required
80%
demand factor) for as long as you wish. Allowing for 90% charging
efficiency, that would charge a Tesla 50kWh battery to 80% SOC in 5 hours
and 48 minutes.
Third, you're a little low even for a regular 20 amp branch-circuit
receptacle. As long as it's a 20 amp rated receptacle, it can deliver up
to
80% of the circuit's rated capacity -- 1.92kW -- for an indefinite
period.
Even a 15 amp receptacle can give you up to 1.44kW continuously.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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[Alan Arrison via EV]

Finally someone sets it straight regarding solar panels on car roofs.

https://qz.com/1482588/why-teslas-dont-and-cant-have-solar-roofs/
Why Teslas don’t—and can’t—have solar roofs
December 3, 2018 Kabir Chibber
[images
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RTX1A0WZ.jpg
The only solar-powered cars that work
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RTS1WEN8.jpg
The Sono prototype / REUTERS/Andreas Gebert
]
It’s a pretty intuitive question. “Why don’t electric cars have solar
roof[s?]” asked one person in the “No Stupid Questions” area of Reddit.
“Wouldn’t it make sense to have a self sustaining charging capabilities.”
There are similar questions on Quora and elsewhere.
T

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[Peri Hartman via EV]

The Stellas are truly amazing. Can they work in real life ?
Lawrence Rhodes, you probably track these vehicles the most of anyone on
this list, maybe you can add to this.

I recall discussing this recently and, in good solar conditions, the
Stella can even climb a mountain pass on its own PVs, not having to use
battery reserve. But that still leaves questions:
- parked in shade or a garage; maybe there needs to be charging for this
case
- poor sun angle in winter; in Seattle, it maxes at 21 deg at the winter
solstice.
- shade from trees, buildings, etc while on the road; how much PV
degredation does this cause?

To make a production version of the Stella, these factors and more need
to be realized. I'd like to see it done but I'm pretty sure Musk and
others chose the more traditional design since they could calculate
engineering success.

Peri


------ Original Message ------
From: "Larry Gales via EV" <***@lists.evdl.org>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <***@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: "Larry Gales" <***@gmail.com>
Sent: 08-Dec-18 11:20:41 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Musk walked-back on PV roof option> too small
a surface

Post by Cor van de Water via EV
Why has no one mentioned the obvious: the Stella Lux and Stella Vie
which
achieve practical solar power because they are extremely lightweight
and
sport a 1.2 to 1.5 solar PV. The Dutch team that has produced these
street
legal vehicles (4-5 passengers, top speed of 77 mph) is also working on
a
production model named "LightYear"

(Eight hours of charging Tesla’s Model 3 from a wall socket will
give you your expected 200-plus miles of range.)
Someone's math is off. You can only get 1KW/h from a wall socket.
Maybe 30
miles in 8 hours.
On Saturday, December 8, 2018, 8:05:15 PM CST, brucedp5 via EV <
https://qz.com/1482588/why-teslas-dont-and-cant-have-solar-roofs/
Why Teslas don’t—and can’t—have solar roofs
December 3, 2018 Kabir Chibber
[images
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RTX1A0WZ.jpg
The only solar-powered cars that work
https://cms.qz.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/RTS1WEN8.jpg
The Sono prototype / REUTERS/Andreas Gebert
]
It’s a pretty intuitive question. “Why don’t electric cars have solar
roof[s?]” asked one person in the “No Stupid Questions” area of
Reddit.
“Wouldn’t it make sense to have a self sustaining charging
capabilities.”
There are similar questions on Quora and elsewhere.
Teslas and other cars run off electricity, drawing from an
electric-power
infrastructure that often runs off of dirty fuels. Solar power
generates
lots of electricity for free from the sun. Why don’t electric cars
have
solar roofs to power them for free?
For one thing, the math makes it quite difficult. Elon Musk briefly
suggested that solar roofs would be an option for the Tesla Model 3,
but
later walked it back and explained why. “Putting solar panels on the
car
itself?” Musk said in July 2017. “Not that helpful, because the actual
surface of the car is not that much, and cars are often inside. The
least
efficient place to put solar is on the car.” It turns out that he had
meant
a solar roof that unfolds from the trunk and overs the current car
hood.
A Tesla rival, the Karma Revero, actually has a solar roof as an
option. As
Wired noted (paywall), modern solar panels are inefficient and convert
just
15-20% of the energy that reaches them. So that Revero solar roof,
having
received eight hours of pure sunshine, will generate enough power to
drive
1.5 miles. (Eight hours of charging Tesla’s Model 3 from a wall socket
will
give you your expected 200-plus miles of range.)
On Quora, Chris Harget, a product-marketing manager in the Bay Area,
The top of an electric car has maybe 3–5 square meters of flat
space.
Solar panels, even at high noon, usually only produce about 200
watt-hours per square meter.
The most efficient production electric vehicles today (probably
the
Hyundai Ioniq and the Tesla Mod 3) would only be able to travel 2–4
miles
on
that amount of electricity…in an hour. Most people could walk faster.
Financially, the cost of the panels and electronics, R&D and
assembly
would never pay for itself in the life of the vehicle, compared to
charging
from the wall in your garage.
That doesn’t mean no one is trying. There’s a German startup called
Sono
Motors that wants to build cars with solar panels. Toyota last year
announced that upcoming Prius hybrid cars would come with Panasonic
solar
roofs (paywall).
Still, even as solar panels become more common and more efficient,
they
won’t be on most cars anytime soon.
[© qz.com]
+
https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3067447/vattenfall-begins-rollout-of-wind-powered-ev-chargers-in-norfolk
Vattenfall begins rollout of wind-powered EV chargers
04 December 2018 Vattenfall is set to begin rolling out its first UK
electric vehicle (EV) chargers in Norfolk this week, after today
announcing
a new partnership with BMM Energy ...
https://www.businessgreen.com/w-images/0e05a981-078a-438e-a16e-cca8813b0f5f/3/InchargeatPyC-580x358.jpg
http://evdl.org/archive/
{brucedp.neocities.org}
--
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/
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[Cor van de Water via EV]

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